American Election Race

[deadedith]

There are are many more things wrong with Obama than his fiscal so-called 'policy'. It is the entire direction of his thought, worldview and teleology. I don't know what crock of distortion is being fed to folks abroad by the media, but from comments here and other places I can tell that the 'news' coverage is wildly biased and thus wildly inaccurate.

And it is not that all the other countries are innocent bystanders. America is the biggest target so it's faults are easily seen; but it's virtues are the largest also and not so often pointed out.

Perhaps the world does not need a policeman - or foreign aid to those that need it - or protection from the likes of Saddam, Hitler, Lenin, - or relief from famine or natural disaster - and perhaps America should not defend itself, or just watch nut cases like Ahmajinedad go ahead and nuke his neighbors?

Basically, like everyone else, Americans want to take care of their families and feel a bit of security.

Politicians are something else, a necessary evil? I don't know.

[P Bill]

The only reason Iran is now a problem is because Cheney / Bush upset the checkmate balance with Iraq. A major blunder by the smartest guys in the room. Many other despots get to carry on for decades and nobody seems to mind. All that effort and debt from two wars and nothing to show for it except the possibility of a nuclear Iran,and Fox News makes Obama the devil.

It's a mistake to confuse a nation's people with a nation's government but the people have to do the right thing.

[deadedith]

Disagree with almost everything you said. The Bush/Cheney mantra is just that - a catch-phrase that caught on. Obama and his policies are a blight on the nation. I think even George Orwell would be shocked by the re-writing of history that the media has perpetrated on a lot of the civilized world.

I even think it is Obama's fault that my binding has gaps in it, and that I am aging prematurely, and that my hair is thinning out. But mainly it is the binding gaps.

[P Bill]

Dave, " Cheney / Bush " has more substance than being just a catch phrase, it is history.

Our binding is pretty crappy as well but that's not Obama's doing.

[deadedith]

Well then, here's to binding all over the world:

[peter.coombe]

From the other side of the world we look at it from a different perspective. What did Obama not do? Answer - he did not start another war. Bush et al started 2 wars, and our pollies in charge at the time got our boys involved and they are still dying on the other side of the world. We don't like it! What was the result of those two wars? We have been and still are a target, and boat people from Iraq and Afganistan are arriving on our shores. To say nothing about the number of people now dead. We don't like that either! Not only that, but the war in Afganistan is now looking pointless. From here some of the utterings of the republican candidate sound like more of the same, so alarm bells ring loud and clear.

Another thing. Most of us did not understand the huge stink about universal heath care in the US. We have had universal health care here for over 30 years. Other countries also have had universal health care for many years. It is not perfect, but it works, and any polly who tries to abolish it here would be lynched. There is more, but that is enought for now.

[deadedith]

We could harangue each other til the cows came home and we would still end up interpreting the 'historical' facts differently.

By his passive ass-kissing of foreign powers, Obama is weakening the world. Not just the USA. Terror organizations are flourishing and they threaten us all; and it is the height of naivete to believe that radical Islam will be satisfied to be left alone - their program is much larger than that, and, I will say it - evil. (Notice I said 'radical' Islam.)

His 'health' program is resulting in a very large number of doctors preparing to drop out of the labor market. In addition, his board of CIVILIAN, that is, non-medical appointees will wield a power unknown before in this country - making medical decisions based on efficiency as defined by - themselves!
As well, his program, which is not even fully in effect for a few years, contains 22 new taxes, some of which have already almost doubled the health cost to citizens. I have no doubt your program is much better, at least I hope it is. His is designed for one purpose: centralization of power and decision making by the government, not by the people.

Also - his catch phrases are all doublethink and doubletalk - one out of many is 'redistribution' of wealth. It does not take a genius to figure out what that means and who it appeals to. Another one is 'Fairness' - which in Obamaspeak is - take from those who have earned wealth, and give it to those who have not earned it. The idea disgusts me. Of course we help those in need - America has always led the rest of the world in aid - but for Obama, 'need' means : want. Those who want unearned wealth should be entitled to it, right? Is that the way it is over there, or do you fellas have to work for your money?

[Kim]

Those who want unearned wealth should be entitled to it, right? Is that the way it is over there, or do you fellas have to work for your money?

I'm sure that's the way it's being sold to everyone by the media Dave because they represent the interests of 'big' businesses and they have the most to lose should equity come riding into town, but it doesn't mean that's the truth of it.

Must say that I was kinda surprised when in a previous post you had placed Saddam in the same category as Adolph and Joe. On a world scale, Saddam had no more impact than any other bullying idiot with an over sized moustache would. There are plenty of him to go around so if the US had been playing the role of earth police when they went into Iraq then they would have been in North Korea years before and also in Syria by now.

Bill mentioned Bush and Cheney and Iraq as a big blunder by the two smartest guys in the room...It's rare but I will disagree with him on that point. Iraq delivered 'exactly' what had been intended since Bush senior first delivered that spanking for Saddam going into Kuwait. In reprisal, Saddam had torn up all existing oil contracts he had with US companies and made an open statement that the USA will never see another barrel of Iraq oil as long 'as he lives'. He then went about negotiating new contracts with France and Russia, remember who it was that was most vocal 'against' going into Iraq during UN negotiations?? I'll leave you to figure that one out......

Well with the Bush boys and Cheney and half their administration all having come from a BIG oil background, the hawks were duty bound to make certain that Saddam got what he need to re-open the Iraq oil trade with the USA, they had to kill him. And business being business, they decided to make a bit of money at the same time. So the Iraq war became the biggest money laundering scheme since...well, probably Vietnam.

When you look at US politics around that period the name Halliburton comes up a lot. Dick Cheney had been Chairman and CEO of Halliburton from 1995 thru 2000 when he had resigned to take part in the 2000 US presidential elections. After the election, in the 'run-up' to the 2003 Iraq war, Halliburton had been awarded a $7 billion Gov'mint contract for which only they had been allowed to bid..and that was just the start.. Halliburton, a civilian company was given the logistic contracts running all military camps in Iraq which included the canteens feeding the troops etc. Halliburton was also given all the contracts to put out hundreds and hundreds of oil wells which had spontaneously combusted and then sometimes re-ignited themselves even when under the control of the ‘coalition of willing’, and all that money, the troops, the tanks, the fuel, the transport, the jets, the ships, the food, the weapons, the fire extinguishers, all of it, every single penny was tax payers money and every day truckloads of it was being ‘dumped’ directly into the pockets of privately owned, USA BIG business, and when the schmoe with the moe was finally dead, all those contracts he had signed with the French and Russians when he had kicked the US out were toilet paper, and that allowed US BIG oil back to the negotiation table in Iraq...perfect....!

But, the debt that little bit of foreign policy had racked up for the US taxpayer sees the interest alone still ripping the gutz out of the country. The sad thing is support for the war was only ever reached with the American people via a media campaign pushing national dignity and ‘sword of the lord' type catch phase such as ‘the axis of evil’ etc, etc.. The saddest thing is that so many seem oblivious to it and find themselves sitting in front of the same TV to listen and believe the same right wing bullshit again..He who does not learn from the lessons of the past is bound to resit them.

You may not like Obama, but have you asked yourself why? If it’s because you’ve read all about his evil plot in the paper or heard of his communist agenda on the news, then it may be a good idea to step away from the screen and try and work out for yourself what’s really going on. That’s not an easy thing to do, but is necessary because you just can’t trust all the pre-chewed food being dished out these days, is so full of agenda and other faeces its enough to make you sick. The worst of it is it clouds the issues so you can’t really be sure of what you will really get from Obama in the end. You can’t say that about Romney though, he’s ‘their’ boy and he's proud of it and history tells ‘exactly’ what US taxpayers are gonna get from him. Should he win this election, I reckon the shrewdest investment the US taxpayer can make for themselves is a great big jar of ‘petroleum’ gel.

Cheers

Kim

[deadedith]

Thanks for the lecture, Kim, I really needed that. I've never really just stopped and looked at the facts and made up my own mind about anything. How could I have been so misled?

I stopped eating baby food a long time ago.

We've stated our positions.

[Kim]

No lecture Dave, most everything I pointed out above is historic fact. It's difficult to argue against granted, but I didn't make it up to try and make my point, previous republican administrations put it there so please don't shoot the messenger in your frustration mate.

Cheers

Kim

[deadedith]

You're not the messenger - I've followed this very closely for many years, and I've kept my eyes open.

[woodrat]

They should have listened to this guy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWW6aDpUvbQ

[deadedith]

I LOVE that guy!!

[Kim]

Romney will do a fine job if the American people allow him to - this current generation will have to tighten the belt in many ways because of the excesses of the last - at least- 30 years - unlimited and childish spending on a national, corporate, and individual basis. Re-defining of personal and political ethics into just what brings personal peace and affluence with no thought of sacrifice or at least delayed gratification; the unconscionable exploitation of the wealth of other peoples for our consumption. Etc Etc. It makes me ashamed because of course, in a small way, I'm responsible in lieu of being a guilty bystander.

If you've been watching with such intent for so many years Dave, why would you believe republican Romney is the cure all?

How can you suggest that Obama's monetary policies are such a disaster when, aside from some reactionary market ripplings they would not have produced a stable outcome for assessment at this stage because they have not had the opportunity to do so in just a single term?

Sorry but if you're so open eyed about political porridge then I just don't get where you're coming from in your statement above given the perfect track record of the republicans....its 'always' been a matter of 'greed is good' with them and that won't ever change while those pulling the strings at the top and shifting the floorboards below that party are all coming from the highest end of town.

Those people are only where they are in this world because they put making money for 'themselves' above 'everything else in the world' and they will do precisely that no matter how detrimental it is to the rest of the world's economy or ecology. At the top of the heap they're all greedy bastards Dave, they just can't help themselves because its in their blood, and those at the top of the republican's mountain stand the highest of them all looking down upon all those below as either a threat, or a victim, and there's never going to be 'anything' in-between for them no matter how many times over a couple of months every four years they take time away from turning a buck to put their arm over your shoulder, smile, and call you their best friend.

I do get it, the rhetoric of working for the hard working American. That we shall build together as our forefathers did with shoulders to the wheel, sweat, blood and a few dead Indians along the way. But I just don't believe it cause its the same well worn nationalistic sales pitch that has worked for them again and again, the same one which they have never delivered upon. But hey that's just my view from the bottom.

Cheers

Kim

[J.F. Custom]

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[peter.coombe]

Ha ha, I think my point about seeing things from a different perspective has just been proven in spades.

Dave, as far as universal health care is concerned none of us here down under have any idea about the fine details of the US health system, nor do we care. However, what we have seen are republicans ranting on about how universal health won't work and will never work, is an abomination against free enterprise blah blah, when those sorts of statements are blindly obviously untrue because our system does work and has been working for over 30 years. Properly implemented, universal health care does work. No Australian goes bankrupt due to health care costs because they suffer a heart attack, and no Ausralian gets left on the side of the road because the ambulance wants their $$s up front. The only conclusion I can come to is that the republicans must be in the pockets of the health insurance companies. Your argument seems to be about implementation, but I was referring to the bigger picture. What we see here is republicans massively against any form of universal health care, and the only way I can understand that is vested interest, corruption etc.

[P Bill]

A bit of humour from the Drum. In the comments Aussies are described as favouring the Democrats because of our health care and gun control.
Our Labor is to the left of the Democrats. The Republicans are to the Gengis Khan right of our Liberals. Elections in Australia are described as being Democrat versus Democrat.

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4349478.html

[deadedith]

Big picture guys, eh?

[deadedith]

I tried to edit the above to add some things, could not find the 'edit' button.

Anyway, I suppose most of us have taken a course, or many courses, in logic both formal and informal; these courses are not necessary to clear thinking, because obviously there are a lot of clear thinkers out there who have not had the 'book learning'; but the book learning can be useful in providing a common grammar for logical fallacies.

In reviewing the thread thus far, I see a couple of logical lapses that I have made, and some that others have made. If you don't recognize the terminology, it's easy to just google it - but I have noticed the following, among others:

Straw man fallacy
Fallacy of composition
False dilemma - the biggest offense imho in the thread thus far
If-by-whisky fallacy -- gotta love that one
Kettle logic
Proof by verbosity
Red herring
Shotgun argumentation
Reductio ad Hitlerum - yeah, my bad
Psychogenetic fallacy

There's more, but basically, this has been a logical mess.

[woodrat]

Dave...I googled the "if by Whiskey" fallacy and enjoyed the Wikipaedia article they had on it....I will do some research on the others too....I like to learn stuff like that....but I know way to little about US politics to make a comment on the topic of the main thread save the posting of the Youtube clip of Vicinni from the Princess Bride. His council was sound about the land war in Asia but if you saw the movie and the whole scene in context then we see that his logic overall was not at all very sound....INCONCEIVABLE !!!!!

John

[P Bill]

Kettle Logic sounds like Bart Simpson...." I didn't do it!, Nobody saw me!, You can't prove it! "

[Kim]

Have Dave you missed a good one.

Chewbacca defense: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_defense

If we're doing diversions here's a pretty good one...Its a basic animation with easy to understand narration so just about anyone can follow it. It's also quite long but don't let that put you off because there's little something for everyone in the end.


youtu.be/

Cheers

Kim

[deadedith]

Kim, you and I and Peter and Nickusa and everyone else has not changed one idea since the beginning of the thread, and we're not going to.

So why waste the time? I find your arguments almost completely unconvincing, I'm sure you find mine the same, nothing is getting accomplished and in the meantime, the election is so hot right now I'm really wrapped up in it. I've got a dog in the fight. I'm an independent who got fooled once, and won't be this time.

I think our arguing has been the diversion, not the humor. So although I am far from 'giving up', I know when I've met someone almost as stubborn as I am. It's been fun enough, but there are other things to do. Such as my stinkin' binding gaps.

[Nick]

I'm an independent who got fooled once, and won't be this time.

Remember my comment about them all being a pack of self serving bastards when placing your tick/dot/notch, whatever system you use Dave Last I heard it was neck & neck in the race so as an outsider it should be interesting to see which way America votes on Wednesday.

[deadedith]

I rate bastards on a 1-10 scale now. They are all ssb's, but some are more ss than others.

Yeah, should be interesting