American Election Race

[needsmorecowbel]

quite well done:


youtu.be/

Stu

[P Bill]

+1, I'm waiting for the one of Romney cleaning the vac with petrol.

[deadedith]

My favorite is a bumper sticker I saw yesterday

OBAMA

One Bad Ass Mistake America


Not funny, but true. I'm not sure what kind of press the rest of the world gets, I hope it is less biased that ours; but wherever we are, we're being lied to most of the time. Just my $.02.
In America, it's everytime this current pres opens his mouth.

[P Bill]

Obama is just the fall guy 30-40 years of poor government and an out of control oligarchy.

Anybody seen the vids of Romney trying to kill rattler with a trowel?

How about the one trying to catch a mule by his hind leg?

[kiwigeo]

Obama is just the fall guy 30-40 years of poor government and an out of control oligarchy.

Pretty much my take on the whole show....

[needsmorecowbel]

I think it would be a horrible thing to take on (despite the paycheck and the house). You would wake up (as president) with the thought in the back of your mind that you might never get your country out of the crappy situation it is in yet you have to keep a brave face, kiss a few babies, shake a few hands etc etc. Obama seemed pretty lethargic during the first debate...

There are websites that tracks US foreign debt...claims the debt to China alone is $1149.6 billion dollars

http://www.davemanuel.com/us-national-debt-clock.php

[deadedith]

Yep, we are in trouble over here. Someone has said that each nation gets the leaders they deserve - Ouch!

Still, there may be one or two things we get right. Obama is NOT one of them; you can do your own research and in 30 minutes have enough real-world FACTS to show you that.

Romney will do a fine job if the American people allow him to - this current generation will have to tighten the belt in many ways because of the excesses of the last - at least- 30 years - unlimited and childish spending on a national, corporate, and individual basis. Re-defining of personal and political ethics into just what brings personal peace and affluence with no thought of sacrifice or at least delayed gratification; the unconscionable exploitation of the wealth of other peoples for our consumption. Etc Etc. It makes me ashamed because of course, in a small way, I'm responsible in lieu of being a guilty bystander.

I am not unmindful of the debt much of the world OWES to the work of the American citizenry - that may be a sore point in some places, but the world would be MUCH the poorer without the work ethic, ingenuity and genius of Americans.

I am not unmindful of the debt the world OWES to the contributions of many nations and peoples as well.

It is after all just one big blue marble we are all on.

Let those that have not likewise sinned cast the first stone, however...

[Kim]

Obama is just the fall guy 30-40 years of poor government and an out of control oligarchy.

Anybody seen the vids of Romney trying to kill rattler with a trowel?

How about the one trying to catch a mule by his hind leg?

You know Bill that's the bit I don't understand about the Republican's argument against the Obama administration. People can say what they will about US Gov'mint debt but without the questionable benefits of US media to sway my opinion, when I look at more recent history it seems it was Bush's 'Republican' administration that got the USA into so much trouble in the first place.

It does not affect me either way, but when I look back at its so called war upon the "axis of evil", the only group to have benefited from the exercise have been private sector. Companies such as Haliburton that apparently was once run by G Bush senior, made hideous amounts of money from servicing US combat troops, and then even more from contracts to rebuild the infrastructure those same troops had been told it was their duty to destroy.

When I couple that with the free for all unregulated financial sector which under Bush junior had been allowed to pull the strings of the US real estate market and manipulate distribution of US Government subsidized home loans via Feddy'n'Fanny, a practice which had ultimately helped trigger the GFC, then I seriously wonder whether or not the whole purpose of the Bush family's foray into politics had been only to establish a money laundering system that would open the public purse to be plundered by the private sector.

If you ask me this bloke Romney is from the same mold, funded by big business for the benefit of big business and the only people who will lose will be the silly bugga who expects some kind of benefit to his/her community from the taxes they pay.

Cheers

Kim

[deadedith]

I see that the discussion is really between Kim and Bill, so I'll just stay out of it.

[Nick]

If you ask me this bloke Romney is from the same mold, funded by big business for the benefit of big business and the only people who will lose will be the silly bugga who expects some kind of benefit to his/her community from the taxes they pay.

Cheers

Kim

Seems to be the basis to the whole American political system to me Kim, there are other countries of course doing it but America would seem to be the most transparent at it whichever party gets in, not just Romney but Obama as well. Big business finances their run at the top job so there must be a point where they expect payback on their investment, after that any 'true' political adgenda that the candidate may have had & aimed at benefiting the people goes out the window, more like aimed at that top 1%. Can't tell me that a large corporation would sink millions into one person just because they liked his or her smile & expect a zero return on their investment.
And Dave, I think most 'western' countries are in trouble these days. Still haven't recovered from the banking crisis, look at Spain, Greece, in a world of financial poo.

[deadedith]

Nick of course you're correct; if we start talking greed, graft, corruption - we are talking about things endemic to the human race as a whole - those that do not indulge in those vices are those that have not had the opportunity or the vision. Or they are good people.
Anyone whose country experienced a similar huge outpouring of invention, industry, genius, and wealth that the USA did from the early 1900's onward, would have taken the opportunity to make profits, purchase commodities, get in debt and get fat just like we did; and with that gain comes a loss of perspective, a loss of reality and a worldview that thinks it should go on forever. We Americans are no better or worse than anyone else in this respect. Fact is, most of the carping against the U.S. is veiled jealousy - NOT ALL of it, so don't anyone flame on this - but yes, we had a lot of stuff AND we were very generous with it, unparalleled in history, and often the motives were good.

I admit freely that the past 10 years or so is a black eye on us Yanks.

[kiwigeo]

I am not unmindful of the debt much of the world OWES to the work of the American citizenry - that may be a sore point in some places, but the world would be MUCH the poorer without the work ethic, ingenuity and genius of Americans.

Release the hounds!!!!

[deadedith]

What do I have to do to get somebody stirred up??

[Nick]

What do I have to do to get somebody stirred up??

Not much, I'm biting my tongue as to your claim of posessing the world's genius's Dave but in the interests of pan pacific relations I'll just get used to the taste of my own blood .

[kiwigeo]

I'll start the ball rolling.

I'm sitting here out on an American-owned oil rig working in Australian waters. Australian regulations require us to report in metric units but because the Americans own the rig and dominate middle to upper level rig management we also have to include imperial equivalents in our reports and on the rig itself we use every unit known to man. Whenever I ask an American why they still use imperial units the come back is usually "because that's the way we do it in The Gulf!".

It might seem like a minor beef on my part but America's refusal to drag itself into the 21st century by going metric has cost them money. A couple of years ago NASA managed to plough a Mars orbiter into the Martian atmosphere....simply because the NASA boffins got their units mixed up.

[deadedith]

Good grief! I did not say Uncle Sam had the ONLY geniuses (genii?) -

Anyway, I don't get all het up about politics, usually - this election is the first I've actually felt a little fire in the belly - and I'm 64 years old. I think it's an important one for us, but what the hell, its all melodrama. I don't even know how you go about choosing 'leaders' down yonder, but I do know that here the 'government of the people, by the people and for the people' is a slogan that has not gotten more than nominal attention for quite awhile. There has been a steady and substantial dumbing down of America since the anti-intellectualism starting with the 'revivals' in the late 19th century.
We were 'ripe' for someone like Obama and boy, have we paid. The man is a disaster.

I need to read up on you fellas. They tell me the Irish saved Western civilization (an entertaining book with an almost believable hypothesis was out not too long ago) but I'm sure there is a fair share of the genius ilk down where the toilets, I'm told, flush opposite of the way they are 'supposed to' - i.e., in America.
LOL.

[jeffhigh]

As a dual citizen, I'm damn glad I live in Australia.
We don't get very much negative press on Obama here, It does seem like a lot of the problem is obstruction in the house and senate.
The rest of the world just wants someone who is not Bush, and Romney looks like Bush to a lot of us.

[P Bill]

You'll notice guns haven't been on the table yet this election. The "progressives" lost a large block voters ( meat hunters )
with a sneering" we know best" approach to guns and religion. the Republicans didn't sneer.

For a good insight into what has happensd in the class system in America, have a look at Joe Bageant. It's a good look at
how/ why people vote the way they do.

http://www.joebageant.com/

[Nick]

Anyway, I don't get all het up about politics, usually - this election is the first I've actually felt a little fire in the belly - and I'm 64 years old. I think it's an important one for us, but what the hell, its all melodrama. I don't even know how you go about choosing 'leaders' down yonder, but I do know that here the 'government of the people, by the people and for the people' is a slogan that has not gotten more than nominal attention for quite awhile.

I'm not that much into politics either Dave, as I read on a bumper sticker once, "Don't vote...it only encourages the bastards" I always vote but whoever gets into power, the saying "power corrupts" comes to mind. We have a strange electoral system here in NZ according to the Americans I've spoken to but then I can't understand your system either . Ours is similar to the German system (mixed member proportional)whereby a party doesnt have to have an outright majority vote in order to run the country, it works on percentages, a party might only have 40% of the total votes but could get into power with the help of lesser parties, it's meant to be fairer for smaller parties to have a say . The Australian system is probably a closer relative to yours than ours. But one advantage ours does have (that I can see) is that electoral spending is capped for all parties and it is illegal to exceed this cap, none of the same multimillion dollar donations from corporations with their own adgendas to buy favours back at a later date & all electoral spending has to be declared or put on record so it's seen as fair for all.

I need to read up on you fellas. They tell me the Irish saved Western civilization (an entertaining book with an almost believable hypothesis was out not too long ago) but I'm sure there is a fair share of the genius ilk down where the toilets, I'm told, flush opposite of the way they are 'supposed to' - i.e., in America.
LOL.

Ernest Rutherford would be just one that would come to mind immediately that would appeal to Americans. Being of English descent I could also rattle off quite a few Europeans that fit into the "where would the modern world be without them?" catagory.

[deadedith]

What we call 'crony capitalism' is THE bane of our system IMHO. Donate big, reap rewards later.
We were designed to be a representative government.
We are, except that what is represented is not the people but the corporations, the big donors with their interests.
But then again, like I've said, we've been dumbed down, and there is a growing consensus that not everyone SHOULD have the right to vote. I actually think that is the way we should go, but I have no idea how that could be implemented.
The NZ system as you describe it is interesting; I'll look into it.

[Nick]

The NZ system as you describe it is interesting; I'll look into it.

It would be a good system if the politicians hadn't 'tweaked' it to suit themselves. One of the pitfalls of the system is the proportional part of the system (and try & stick with me here! ). If say, the party I mentioned before got 40% of the total national vote that means they get 40% of the seats in parliament, there are a total of 120 seats, 61 are needed to form a government. They might only have won 40 actual seats (using a majority vote system in each electorate, similar to voting for your favourite politician or the person you want to represent you in your area, we get two votes, one for the party & one for the politician) but because they got 40% of the total vote, they are entitled to 48 seats so the ones that didn't win a seat in the election go on a party's list & are ranked by that party, so in this case it's possible for an additional 8 members from the top of a party list to get into government & all it's associated percs. Mind numbing I know but easier to understand once you've been through an election or two.
And where it falls down is you end up with people in positions of power that were never voted for by the people. Our current Education minister never even ran for any electorate seat because she knew she'd be put high on "the list" and so would get in anyway. She's now running around wanting to close and amalgamate schools & is loving the power associated with it.
There is also a 5% threshold so it's possible for one of the smaller parties to only get 5% of the total national vote & not win a single seat in any electorate yet they still get a seat in parliament. It's these smaller parties that the two main parties kiss up to after an election in order to get their seat to make their numbers up past the magic 61 number.
It's a good system in principle because there's oportunity for a smaller party to hold the bigger parties in check if they want to do something completely ridiculous but as we know, principles are ignored in government

[Kim]

If you ask me this bloke Romney is from the same mold, funded by big business for the benefit of big business and the only people who will lose will be the silly bugga who expects some kind of benefit to his/her community from the taxes they pay.

Cheers

Kim

Seems to be the basis to the whole American political system to me Kim, there are other countries of course doing it but America would seem to be the most transparent at it whichever party gets in, not just Romney but Obama as well. Big business finances their run at the top job so there must be a point where they expect payback on their investment, after that any 'true' political adgenda that the candidate may have had & aimed at benefiting the people goes out the window, more like aimed at that top 1%. Can't tell me that a large corporation would sink millions into one person just because they liked his or her smile & expect a zero return on their investment.

Nick, what you say is true to a point however it comes down to how much of a candidate arse it bought and paid for.

Despite what appears to be a conflict of interest a candidate from the left side of politics such as Obama 'must' take donations from the big end of town just to be a starter in the race as you suggest. But as I understand Obama received a large portion of his campaign funding from regular people who were desperate for equity and some element of social justice. Yes it is obvious that those corporate concerns donating to the Obama's campaign would want something for their money. But when the left is threatening to take power by popular majority, such donations will flow in from the 'biggest' end of town simply because those entities 'must' maintain an environment in which they can continue to profit at a level which their shareholders have become accustom to or their CEO's will be out.

So such donations are made to cover 'all' the bases. They still donate to the Romnies of this world but are smart enough to understand that once in power the favours from the left are more likely to be about what you 'don't' get...

Not so confusing for donations to the someone from the right, the so called conservatives such as Romney. He's 100% owned because near every single cent of his campaign funds will pour in from the business end of town big and small cause they all want their boy in the chair to remove regulations and proactively legislate to help them to make money hand over fist regardless of the cost to the community, and the media? Well they 'are' big business, they're the makers and breakers that feed people the cool aid needed to make it all sound like a good thing even when its not...Is it any different here in AU or NZ..No way Hose' but if you fall for the spiel that the left has caused all the financial problems in USA or anywhere, then you better take a closer look because you've been hood winked by Captian Rupert and his dirt cowboys...take a look at what happened in England, does anyone seriously believe that a boarderless international corporate entity could all of a sudden discovers boarders when setting their ethical compass??

Cheers

Kim

[Kim]

there is a growing consensus that not everyone SHOULD have the right to vote. I actually think that is the way we should go, but I have no idea how that could be implemented.

So Dave, what sort of 'democracy' would that be?? You have no idea how that would be implemented but I do. The terms of who can and who can't vote would be "determined by an independent body, appointed by the government of the day" We've have loads of them things here and it works like this. The "government of the day" loads the so called independent body with sympathetic cronies who work together in a democratic way to push through the "government of the days" agenda.

Now that works great when you like the "government of the day". But if you don't, then it really, really sucks. But by far the biggest problem is the filtering effect of such bodies. You see as governments of the day come and go, none bother to take 'their' bodies changes with them. So pretty soon everyone winds up with something that nobody likes...except of course the 1%ers who are fiscally insulated enough to be immune to almost everything.

So what do you end up with in 50 years?? Probably something that says only those with a gazillion bucks in the bank and are under 35 can vote..what a wonderful world 'that' would be...Makes me wonder if anyone has bothered to consult those who fought and died for democracy if this had been what 'they' had in mind when the whistle blew and they piled over the top to run forward like so many lead magnets??

Cheers

Kim

[nnickusa]

I spent most of my life in the US. I spent 4 years in the US Air Force. I'm proud of that. I'm not proud of America or it's politics. I'm much more than happy that I left.

The latest US fiasco is the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq. 6 guys sitting in a cave in PAKISTAN orchestrated the greatest attack on American soil ever by foreign interests in the history of the US.

In my experience, the Republicans cause more problems than they ever solve. Government, historically, grows more under Republican administrations, despite promising the opposite. Wars seem to abound under Republican governments... Let's see, recently only, George Bush the 1st, Iraq. George Bush the 2nd, Iraq(Only cause daddy didn't win. Most of the "evidence" presented to support the claims of WMD were from 1990.) and Afgahnistan. Lord help the rest of the world if JEB Bush ever gets in, as he was the catalyst to stealing the election from Al Gore.

Not a fan of conservative governments in the US. They kill way too many children, just not the children of the politicians. GW Bush spent many happy days flying his Super Sonic Jet over the Texas Panhandle while lots of good kids were getting killed and irrepairably fucked up during the Vietnam Era.

The world needs more centrist governments, not those pandering to big business, the religious right, the environmental(Note the use of the word MENTAL) loonies and all the other special interest groups.

From the people I know, noone gives a shit about the crap that's on TV. They care about their children being slaughtered in faraway countries for no reason they can jusitify. they care about paying the mortgage. they care about sending their surviving kids to school. They care about trying to make a living in times that allow the collapse of the world's financial institutions for no apparent reason. Remember the Savings and Loan Fiasco the 80'.90's? My house lost 40% of it's value, and the bank made me pay $35,000 to keep my loan current. Do you know who was the Director of the FIRST S&L that went bust? Neil Bush....#1 Son to GHW Bush, President of the USA. Why didn't THAT Bush go to jail?

I won't comment on this thread again, but the Republicans cause many more problems than they solve, and they spend more thatn Democrats ever do. Not that I am a Democratic supporter.

One question: Where else in the world is it perfectly legal for the government to apprehend, hold, deny the right of contact with an attorney, without charge, for an indefinite amount of time, it's own citizens? There are several countries around the world where this is common practise. I bet the framers of the US Constitution didn't think it would be the country they paid so much to help create.......

[deadedith]

Kim, you put your finger on it. When I said that I did not know how to implement it, I meant - how to implement it fairly. But of course 'fairly' is SOME PARTICULAR PERSON'S/DONOR'S/FAT CAT'S/SMALL GROUP WITH LEVERAGE idea of what 'fair' REALLY means - i.e., what is ethical; or to sound a trite phrase that is loaded with significance -" might makes right" - ethics in the service of self interest. Scariest words in the language, other than, "Honey, I just clicked the 'history' button on your internet page by mistake and what is all this sex stuff on here?" Or so I can imagine

Someone has coined the term 'the hermeneutics of suspicion' to describe what many of us - by 'us' I mean a growing number of the citizenry of almost all countries where freedom of thought is allowed - think is the only rational way to understand the motivations behind the politics of the day - hell, not just the politics, everything - advertising, media - for that matter. We suspect that a grasp for personal power or corporate power or a grasp for wealth (= power?) lies behind everything, and what we see and hear presented to us as truth is only the mask that the grasping for power/wealth wears to make itself look better intentioned that it really is. We suspect the iron fist in the soft glove of Democracy, we suspect that it can be a cover for the 'tyranny of the majority', in other words we are not children anymore and we DO know a bit about what is going on. Suspicion=reality? Is that a pathology or just the most appropriate intellectual stance to take in the real world?

In a nutshell, that is my problem with Obama, who in the last resort is nothing but a very good orator with a HUGE agenda he tries desperately to hide. His keywords are 'fairness' - think Orwell's 1984 and his ideas on the corruption of language in the service of power - 'fairness' in Obamaspeak means in essence - we all built this thing, so we all have a right to it. Most notoriously - if you built a business,well, you had to drive on a public road to get to the building where you run your business - so any profits you make actually belong to all those that made the road, that is, the taxpayers: your money actually is our money. So let's take those profits and divide them up - redistribute them - of course, redistribute them mainly to me and the people who put me in power, and we will convince the stupid citizenry of America that we know what to do with those redistributed funds. We know what is fair.
Or in the words of another of Orwell's characters - all animals on the farm are equal, but some are more equal than others.
I need to go back and read Orwell again; I'd forgotten how good he was.

When I used the word 'genius' to describe America at one time in her history, I did not mean a 'high i.q. score" - in other words, I did not mean very very smart - I meant by the term ' genius' the insight, the profundity of the founding documents and the philosophy that underpinned them, that ideally provided for true representative government, and gave the people a fighting chance against the oh-too-human propensity toward centralization and the manipulation by the elite.
It worked for a while, that is just a matter of history and is verifiable - there was a flowering in the country that had some good effects. Not so much anymore; the founding ideals were an attempt to systematize what cannot be systematized - human nature. (Much the same as some minority opinions in religion - a system has no power for the renewal of character, a creed is a lifeless thing).

Okay, I'm boring even myself now, and cease. One of the prices the men in my family have always paid for getting older is, we sleep less and less, and I'm on my third night of 2 hours' sleep. Makes one ramble in one's thoughts.