Australian/New Zealand Luthiers Forum

So, you may have seen this guitar over in the Anything Goes topic but I thought I'd share a couple of pics.

Soundboard - Engelmann Spruce
Back and Sides - Brazilian Rosewood
Neck - Brazilian Mahogany
Bracing - radial, spruce and carbon fibre
Bridge - Brazilian Rosewood
Finish - Nitro

Nice work Martin. What pore filling method if any did you use on the BRW?

Very nice.

Peter

besides the brazillian rosewood (poor cut though) and mahogany, everything else about this guitar is untraditional from Spanish classical guitar building. ie choice of back strip, lack of purfling detail, bracing choice, soundboard wood choice, tuner button and roller colour choice, rosette style, oversized bridge (I hope it has not bridge plate underneath), lack of 19th fet (which is traditionally cut in half have the whole soundhole), and lastly the most dreaded of all "shudder,,,errr" a nitro finish on a classical!!.. I wonder if body resonance pitch and soundboard to back interval were considered, which is most important for a Spanish classical guitar. makes me wonder what else hides inside. Apologies, but not all critique has to be good. looking at this I just think, why??? more research please.

kpcart wrote:besides the brazillian rosewood (poor cut though) and mahogany, everything else about this guitar is untraditional from Spanish classical guitar building. ie choice of back strip, lack of purfling detail, bracing choice, soundboard wood choice, tuner button and roller colour choice, rosette style, oversized bridge (I hope it has not bridge plate underneath), lack of 19th fet (which is traditionally cut in half have the whole soundhole), and lastly the most dreaded of all "shudder,,,errr" a nitro finish on a classical!!.. I wonder if body resonance pitch and soundboard to back interval were considered, which is most important for a Spanish classical guitar. makes me wonder what else hides inside. Apologies, but not all critique has to be good. looking at this I just think, why??? more research please.

Not sure if you're serious with your critique or it's tounge in cheek. My ten cents worth:

1. choice of back strip - purely asthetic and thus not important in my book.
2.lack of purfling detail - sometimes simple is best. It's how I build.
3. bracing choice - why stick to a bracing design that's been around since the early 1800's? I use CF reinforced falcate bracing on my classicals and it performs better than fan bracing...eg it's lighter but has same stiffness as fan bracing and the even spacing of the bracing means more even vibration across the top.
4. roller and rosette choice - again purely asthetics.
5. soundboard choice - Engleman is a common choice of top wood for a classical.
6. lack of 19th fret - I cant remember the last time I played that high up the fretboard on a classical.
7. nitro finish - I probably would have gone for nitro on the back and sides and FP on the top.
8. the large bridge - you need to look at the bridge design/size along with whats going on under the top (ie bracing).
9. the flat sawn BRW - Ive seen many classicals made from BRW that isn't cut on the quarter. It probably boils down to a matter of cost and availability of quarter sawn BRW.
10. Too hell with tradition!!!! If it weren't for non-traditionalists like Martin, guitar building would be a boring mundane pastime.

Mmm... uh why not?

Steve

Looks good to me.
I enjoy this forum as its a positive space. Personally I have many thoughts on guitars but know that guitar building is an art. And the great thing about art is that it is subjective. Just because I don't understand what the artist is doing, doesn't mean I should speak my mind. I should try to see it from the artist perspective and gain understanding. Probably my social work roots coming out also!

Australians aren't renowned for doing "traditional". You only need to look at our wine making industry. If we'd stuck to "traditional" the industry would have gone absolutely nowhere since the first Europeans arrived on our shores.

besides the brazillian rosewood (poor cut though) and mahogany,

The story of how Martin acquired this, actually quite beautiful, BRW (and the parquetry back strip) is quite touching. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6688&p=77596#p77596

everything else about this guitar is untraditional from Spanish classical guitar building.

Well, I don't think martin set out to create an historical replica. Anyway, from memory the body shape is a straight copy of a Torres with no alterations. Shocking.

soundboard wood choice,

Engelmann? Are we spitting hairs over spruce spp.? It's light, stiff, and pretty, what more do we want?

tuner button and roller colour choice,

Wait til you hear what he paid for them...

rosette style,

Agree, but each their own

oversized bridge (I hope it has not bridge plate underneath)

Straight from the Torres plans I believe. And with a Marty radial CF design there is no bridge plate unless I'm mistaken.

and lastly the most dreaded of all "shudder,,,errr" a nitro finish on a classical!!.

.
Let's compile a list of great classical builders who use nitro on the back & sides! Agreed for the top though, sorry Martin

I wonder if body resonance pitch and soundboard to back interval were considered, which is most important for a Spanish classical guitar.

Well, it's a beauty of a guitar to play. Which is the ultimate test, imho. I'd rather a good-sounding, easy to play, non-traditional guitar, than something that looks the part and sounds like shite.

Great guitar Martin, looks really nice and I'm sure it sounds as good as it looks. I'm half way through a classical build at the moment, looks like I've stuffed up, I have an Englemann top a burl rosette and it's falcate braced
Wayne

Martin it's truly beautiful

Damn, that looks amazing! Very nice.

I'm sure it sounds as good as it looks.

looks like a cracker to me! beautifully executed.I bet it sounds great too.
Someone is clearly jealous Martin, you don't need to explain anything to anyone.
It's your personal aesthetic and design! And if you love it and it works, keep doing it.

Cheers,
Christian.

kpcart wrote:everything else about this guitar is untraditional from Spanish classical guitar building

So you feel that us builders should keep making everything 'traditional'?

kpcart wrote:besides the brazillian rosewood (poor cut though) and mahogany, everything else about this guitar is untraditional from Spanish classical guitar building. ie choice of back strip, lack of purfling detail, bracing choice, soundboard wood choice, tuner button and roller colour choice, rosette style, oversized bridge (I hope it has not bridge plate underneath), lack of 19th fet (which is traditionally cut in half have the whole soundhole), and lastly the most dreaded of all "shudder,,,errr" a nitro finish on a classical!!.. I wonder if body resonance pitch and soundboard to back interval were considered, which is most important for a Spanish classical guitar. makes me wonder what else hides inside. Apologies, but not all critique has to be good. looking at this I just think, why??? more research please.

Consider how you would feel, if you put in over 100 hours of painstaking effort, then bravely offered up your handiwork for the scrutiny of your peers, only to receive an epic list of criticisms from a person who has built one guitar.

Just say nice things dude - and be respectful. We're talking about someone's pride and joy here.

kiwigeo wrote: Not sure if you're serious with your critique or it's tounge in cheek.

+1 on that.
One thing I cannot understand is the 'snobbery' that goes along with classical guitars either by players or makers. It's merely a label and not a method.

Nice axe Martin or should that be "fore sooth, tis much a thing of rare eloquence and beauty good sir."

Trevor calls his classicals "neo-classicals".

Nick wrote:
Nice axe Martin or should that be "fore sooth, tis much a thing of rare eloquence and beauty good sir."

Drinking DB Draught tonight?

kiwigeo wrote:Trevor calls his classicals "neo-classicals".

...but only the neo ones...

Wow, be a bit busy for the forum for a few days and come back to this!

Thanks for all the comments, yes, even kpcart's comments. I am a believer that everyone is entitled to their opinion.

As a few have already addressed some of kpcarts comments I don't feel the need to address all of them but as mentioned, the BRW came as is as a gift from a retired classical builder who has already inlaid the back strip to the back pieces. He had hand made the strips during WWII when he was 16. I felt privileged that he decided to bless me with his collection of strips and timber.

The guitar is going to be a gift for one of my 3 children (yes, I am making one each for them) so the need for it to be "traditional" was never relevant to me or them.

The "oversized" bridge is easy to explain. It isn't. The bridge may look large because this is a Torres small body shape and therefore is proportionally different to what you may have expected. The size is based on what is "traditionally" what Torres himself used but he was known to mix things up a bit. There is no bridge plate.

As to all the other bits, I just don't care! I never set out to make guitars based on what someone else said they had to be. I am always looking to experiment and test my own build skills and creativity. If someone came to me and asked for a "traditional" classical guitar, that is what I would probably them (probably because I may decide to convince them of something else!)

But lastly, as said, I gave up being affected by what other people thought of me long ago. I welcome comments, whatever they may be and I hope everyone gets inspired to make guitars of all shapes and sizes and hopefully better than mine so I can keep getting inspired.

I've had one thought right through this thread.....what were other makers saying when Torres came out with his first guitar with "non traditional" fan bracing?

Looks great to me. Must have been nice working that beautiful BRW ... Kinda mesmerising to look at now it's all polished and glossy.

Re the nitro finish... I bought a brand new Ramirez 1a, tradicional model from their shop in Madrid back in 2011. Top, back and sides all finished in nitro. Someone should tell them they got their tradicional model wrong! At least it sounds nice...