Australian/New Zealand Luthiers Forum

Well here it is. Finally all the problems have ben fixed and I have been brave enough to take some pictures. Pretty damn pleased with the sound.

It is guitar #1, serial #133.

very nice work mate

Geez Peter, looking at that fine piece of work anyone would think that you've been building stringed instruments for years!

Congrats on finishing your first OM.

Lovely Peter, all elegance and simplicity. The tuners look very neat - modern and retro at the same time

I'm part way through my first OM - I hope it looks half as good as that when its done.

Cheers

Richard

That's all class Peter. Glad you got it sorted out and posted pictures.

Yep 100% class Peter, truly beautiful in its elegant simplicity.

Well Done

Cheers

Kim

Very nice job Peter, I like the nice simple clean lines of this one, not too much bling but enough to highlight the lines. Did you finish the neck & body seperately then join them? And brand of tuner?

Very nice , crisp work Peter.

I did finish the neck and body separately and then bolt it together. The finish is a varnish finish, same as I use on the mandolins, but phew, a guitar is a heck of a lot more work and I really went through the sandpaper. End result is nice though, the varnish has such a lovely feel to it. I am not a guitar player, around a dozen chords is about all I manage, but I can't put this guitar down.

The tuners are Schertler, just recently offered by Stew Mac, made in Switzerland. Very nice, very smooth and accurate, and not too expensive for the quality. Knobs are Ebony. Recommended.

Thanks Peter, I thought I'd seen the tuners somewhere before....hope the Ebony knobs are Cities certified!
The finish is very nice & I did wonder about the neck when I saw that nice crisp clean joint line between the sides & heel. Thought if they were done with neck on body, you may have had some 'trade secret' you weren't sharing

It certainly looks like a lovely guitar Peter, but not totally unexpected given the quality of your mandolins. Nick mentioned "trade secrets" in his post above, and I am going to ask a question about your beautiful varnish finishes, which I fully understand you not wanting to answer, if it's a "trade secret".

Is your varnish a violin type varnish? And if so, is it oil or spirit based? And if not, what kind of varnish is it? And how do you apply it? And lots of other questions too, but I don't want to be too greedy!

The varnish finish is complicated and has taken me many years to perfect and I am still perfecting it. There is always room for improvement. It is not a violin varnish, nor is it a trade secret. It is a beautiful finish that feels wonderful, but does take a long time to fully harden (months). There is no spray gun involved and no toxic solvents unless you class metho as a toxic solvent. It is all hand work and tedious, but I think is worth it. The original idea came from Lynn Dudenbostle who told me he had discovered an oil varnish that worked great, but I was sworn to secrecy so I can't tell you what he uses. It is not available in Australia. Lynn was using lacquer on his guitars, but after trying the varnish once on a guitar switched to varnish because there was a distinct improvement in the sound. The mandolin market has a premium on varnish finishes so just about all the top mandolin makers use varnish. There are endless arguments about sound differences between varnish and lacquer, but most seem to prefer varnish. If you would like to see some really top class work have a look at Lynn's web page. When Lynn gives you a tip, you listen!

Basically my varnish technique is like this -

(1) Dark blonde dewaxed shellac brushed on, 1 or 2 coats depending on desired colour and 3 coats if there is stain to stop the stain coming out into the water based filler. Sand with 1200 between each coat.
(2) Target coatings wood grain filler. This is water based. You need at least 3 coats of this, more for woods with big pores. Sand between each coat. Get more aggressive with the sanding as you get more coats on. I usually start with 1200 and move to 600 or less for the last coats.
(3) Target Coatings hybrid varnish, brushed on. This is the real part of the varnish and the most critical, and probably the most tricky. This stuff is an Alkyd based varnish (i.e. an oil varnish), but the solvent is water. Ideally I would use an alkyd resin based oil spar varnish, but it is made in the USA and I can't get it. Water based varnishes can be shipped from the USA, but not oil based varnishes which are classified as paint. This is the closest I can get without paying $1000 for a quart tin. The Aussie spar varnishes are hopeless, I've tried them all. You will need about 7 or 8 coats of this. It dries in 2 hrs so you can get up to 4 coats on in a day. The trick is how you apply it and sand it. I use a brush or a rag. You can't be too aggressive with the sanding after 2 hrs, it needs overnight drying. I usually use 1200 between each coat and a couple of thorough 600 sandings. The 600 sandings need to be done so that most of the brush marks are removed. This varnish is not so easy to apply, you need to dilute it with some water, but not too much water or it won't work. Practice makes perfect, and you need to be fast, it dries fast.
(4) Allow the varnish to polymerize thoroughly. This takes at least 5 days. At this stage it looks a bit like lacquer. After 5 days start french polishing. Once agian, more sanding. You can wet sand with olive oil to lubricate (don't use water with shellac). Keep french polishing until you are satified with the finish. French polishing is real tricky, and practice makes perfect. It is something you are always learning something new about. I usually use dewaxed shellac, but the final french polishing is done with a spirit varnish concoction mostly made up of seedlac with a bit of sanderac and mastic. This gives a better shine than straight shellac. Allow to dry at least 4 days before stringing the instrument up. You will probably need to go back a few weeks later and give it another french polish session. Then it is finished.

The biggest problem I have had is that the manufacturer of the varnish keeps changing the formula. Mostly it has improved, but you need to adapt your application technique and the amount of water you add every time they change the formula or it turns into a mess. Very annoying.

That is it, you can now go off and do some varnishing, but you are unlikely to get the sort of finish I get without a lot of practice.

Peter

What can I add? looks fantastic. I too love the look of that varnish finish. A lot of work but sure seems to pay off.

She's beautiful Peter. I can understand why you're having a hard time putting her down.

Thanks for sharing your "trade secrets" on finishing. I may have to give the alkyd resin based oil spar varnish version a go.

Very sharp work Peter. Glad to hear you are happy with the tone too.

Somehow you have managed to carry your 'style' from the Mandolins through to this guitar. A very simple and refined look.

Thanks also for sharing your finish schedule - always interesting to read other methods.

One curiosity though - are the sides not bookmatched? It appears as though you have "reversed" the 'standard' match? In any case, I like it - it highlights the colour variations within the timber. Maybe it's not deliberate, but it does not detract.

Jeremy.

Damn, you picked the only visible boo boo.

Peter

Very nice indeed, Peter. Its a bit hard to say something original at this stage of the thread...but I agree with all the forgoing praise...well done!

John

peter.coombe wrote:Damn, you picked the only visible boo boo.

Peter

Boo boo?! You mean "deliberate artistic statement"...

Sorry mate.

Like I said though, I think it's kind of a good effect.

Funny that mistakes can sometimes lead you to ponder outside the "box".

Jeremy.

Thanks Peter for your generous answer on finishing. What you have achieved is clearly the result of a great deal of effort, experimentation, and experience. Do you make your own seedlac/sandarac/mastic spirit varnish for the final french polished coat?

You observe that the alkyd varnish takes a long time to harden, by polymerisation. Could you speed the process up by using UV lamps?

I don't know if UV light speeds up the process. I just go on the manufacturer's recommendation which is a minimum of 5 days. Yes I do make up my own seedlac/sandarac/mastic spirit varnish. It also contains some lavendar spike oil so the instrument smells of lavendar for a while. It is actually a violin varnish, and I used to use that particular spirit varnish on it's own french polished at one time.

I think I know the spirit varnish you are referring to, Peter. Very early 18th century.

First OM Guitar !!! thats an amazing effort Peter, Looks fantastic, workmanship is all class.
Love that carpathian top bet it sounds magic.

Cheers,

Christian.

Looks great Peter! I really like the shape and dimensions, I know that it is an OM but I was curious if you based it on a commercial instrument?

I know that it is an OM but I was curious if you based it on a commercial instrument?

Not really. I have 3 OM plans and they are all different. This guitar is based on things that I liked in all 3 plans, but mostly is based on the Grellier plan so has the Martin bracing pattern. I do have a Tim Wright OM that I used as a reference, but my guitar is not a copy of the Wright.

Anyway, after picking up just about every other guitar at Port Fairy, I think I can be justifiably proud of the sound of this one.

Peter