Australian/New Zealand Luthiers Forum

South Pacific/Indian Ocean/Gulf of Carpentaria/Great Australian Bight Luthiers
It is currently Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:59 pm

All times are UTC + 10 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 36 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:40 pm 
Offline
Blackwood
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:25 am
Posts: 1649
Location: Switzerland
As this will be a poor man's copy of a not so cheap table top saw powered by ones own hands, I'll call it Jointapprentice Hobby a1, explicitly not alluding to mastery or professionalism, the "a" stands for attempt. So this is attempt N°1. I hope I won't have to go for more attempts...

Here, some aliens brought me this plan:

Image

The heart of the saw will be those two wedges,

Image

the upper one clamping firmly the Japanese Saw blade Pete Howlett recommended here for his "Fretmaster". Btw, in Australia and New Zealand you can get exactly the same blade from Carbatech, it's this one (according to Pete it's suited for fret slotting).

The lower wedge will be sled under the upper stationary wedge, lifting the latter one as needed.
The lower wedge slides on a square aluminium profile which can be angled more or less to adjust the cutting ratio of the saw blade. The pivot point is a 8mm dowel at the lower edge of the aluminium profile at the position of the first tooth of the blade.

This is the MDF base plate:

Image

The 8mm dowel mentioned above sits in the groove of the base board, the slot is to accept the pivoting aluminium profile.

Image

Erecting the guiding walls for the wedges:

Image

Image Image

Planing MDF :? :

Image

The end of this weekend:

Image

Each of these two pieces will accept two cheap drawer slides which will be mounted to the outer "walls" of the saw.

Image

The sliding table of the saw will be mounted on top of the two pieces pictured.

_________________
Markus

To be stupid is like to be dead. Oneself will not be aware of it.
It's only the others who suffer.


Last edited by charangohabsburg on Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:27 pm 
Offline
Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:57 pm
Posts: 7041
Location: Adelaide, Sth Australia
You cant read plans very well.......according to the plans the thing is supposed to be 30km in length. :?

_________________
Martin


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:33 pm 
Offline
Blackwood
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:25 am
Posts: 1649
Location: Switzerland
I'm sorry Martin you are wrong too... :( It's 30 Nautic Miles! :lol:
Seeaxe gave the perfect solution in the other thread! :gui

_________________
Markus

To be stupid is like to be dead. Oneself will not be aware of it.
It's only the others who suffer.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:00 pm 
Offline
Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:57 pm
Posts: 7041
Location: Adelaide, Sth Australia
charangohabsburg wrote:
I'm sorry Martin you are wrong too... :( It's 30 Nautic Miles! :lol:
Seeaxe gave the perfect solution in the other thread! :gui


Well in that case...wheres the sail???

_________________
Martin


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:06 am 
Offline
Blackwood
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:25 am
Posts: 1649
Location: Switzerland
kiwigeo wrote:
Well in that case...wheres the sail???
No sails attached, just some rails. The upper scale that goes only to the center of the picture is in km, the lower scale is in NM. The larger scale is useful for the bigger version of the saw which would be perfectly suited for cutting Switzerland into slices. :shock:


Today I made the grooves which will hold the inner part of the rails.

MDF eating mermaid:
Image

Dusty mermaid:
Image

It's still much less dust than cutting MDF (or real wood) with a router.

After cutting two narrow groves the center part gets chipped out easily with a chisel:
Image

The rails:
Image

_________________
Markus

To be stupid is like to be dead. Oneself will not be aware of it.
It's only the others who suffer.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:53 am 
Offline
Blackwood
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:25 am
Posts: 1649
Location: Switzerland
Customised screws, approximately 3000 file strokes worth :shock: .
Attachment:
File comment: 3000 file strokes worth
2011_D70_3159-1.jpg
2011_D70_3159-1.jpg [ 92.46 KiB | Viewed 11355 times ]

These will serve for attaching the rails to the rest of the saw.

A picture from the catalogue :mrgreen: :
Attachment:
2011_D70_3205-1.jpg
2011_D70_3205-1.jpg [ 39.88 KiB | Viewed 11355 times ]


I am a bit behind with posting pictures of the building progress. I also hesitated to comment step by step because I constantly was (am) adding features to the saw. I found it too risky to explain those features before I was sure they will work :roll: .

But now I am over the dead point. Expect to see more pictures and also plans in the next few days! ;)

Cheers,

_________________
Markus

To be stupid is like to be dead. Oneself will not be aware of it.
It's only the others who suffer.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:17 pm 
Offline
Blackwood
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:25 am
Posts: 1649
Location: Switzerland
The two wedges of the blade rising mechanism (see first post of this thread) must get held together in order the blade holding wedge does not get pulled up by the momentum induced by the wood pushing against the blade teeth. First I had thought of using springs pushing the upper wedge down but I found this would get a too flimsy mechanism with a lot of useless friction included. I ended up with some inlay work using magnets (the strong ones, 8mm diameter, 3mm thick) in down-face of the upper wedge and iron bars in up-face of the lower wedge:

Image Image

As I could not find flat iron bars I mounted M8 threaded rods onto a piece of plywood and ground a flat side so the magnets will have some surface to "grab".

Image Image Image

The blade gets clamped between the tho halves of the upper wedge. It sits in there for less then 10mm, two screws go through the blade. Those blades are pretty tough: each hole cost me one drill bit, but at least the holes were done with that). I was afraid that tightening the M4 screws directly on the MDF would just pull them through it... or at least destroy the MDF little by little when using the saw and changing blades, so I reinforced that zone with some ugly beech inlay.

Image Image

Well, at least no one can complain there was no inlay on this saw... :roll:

Of course, this is not the whole story about how to hold down that blade, it got much trickier than just that but in the end I solved the problem (before starting to build). Details will follow in the next posts (another day).

_________________
Markus

To be stupid is like to be dead. Oneself will not be aware of it.
It's only the others who suffer.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:28 pm 
Offline
Blackwood
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:25 am
Posts: 1649
Location: Switzerland
charangohabsburg wrote:
Of course, this is not the whole story about how to hold down that blade, it got much trickier than just that but in the end I solved the problem (before starting to build). Details will follow in the next posts (another day).

The next step was to find a way to hold down also the lower wedge to the aluminium profile.
Image

Time for some more magnetic inlay:
Image

Of course I regret to not have an iron bar handy because these magnets will not stick to an aluminium profile. The profile gets filled with a wooden bar for providing the "hinge" (= the half of a hole you can see there) and to screw things to it...
Image Image

...and the wooden bar must get filled now in some way with iron. I didn't want to grind flat more threaded rods (it's just a too noisy job). So, what to do?

NUTS !!!
Image

Lined up nuts make up a nice flat side... :roll:

Done:
Image

More nuts:
Image

Image

The differently oriented nuts in the upper part of the picture above allow to screw in two rods...
Image

...which will allow to hold down the aluminium profile to the base board (finally!),

while the flat lying nut in the lower part of the picture just lies there for it's hole...
Image

It is where a little wedge gets attached:
Image Image Image Image

This little wedge ist the counter part of a greater wedge which gets shoved under the aluminium profile to alter the rising angle of the saw blade. The gap shown here is just to demonstrate how the wedges will fit:
Image

From outside it looks like this, with a nice scale on the wedge, one number for each millimetre the blade tip will be higher than the first saw tooth, and a mechanism to clamp the wedge in place:
Image

The clamping mechanism is remote controlled with a looooong threaded rod. Too long?
Image

No, it's not too long. It allows a clamp at this location:
Image

That's it for today.

_________________
Markus

To be stupid is like to be dead. Oneself will not be aware of it.
It's only the others who suffer.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:20 am 
Offline
Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:32 pm
Posts: 4380
Location: South of Perth WA
Brilliant Markus!

I love the way you work mate, you manage to come up with a solution to everything. You may be one of the lucky clever people who manages to find a way then and there, but if you are anything like me, you find yourself heading off to bed some nights and it is then that the mind really crank into gear...all of a sudden out of the blue the ahh haa! moment comes...I guess it does not matter either way because in the end there is always a solution :D

Nice work, keep it coming. 8)

Cheers

Kim


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 10:40 am 
Offline
Blackwood
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:20 am
Posts: 3244
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
You've got lots of nuts Marcus! :lol: :lol:
Been an enjoyable post, it's always interesting to see how others problem solve & come up with solutions. And as an engineer by day, it's also great to see how people without access to certain equipment tackle the task from home. I don't think you could ever replace the good old file!

_________________
"Jesus Loves You."
Nice to hear in church but not in a Mexican prison.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 12:06 pm 
Offline
Blackwood
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:25 am
Posts: 1649
Location: Switzerland
Thanks Kim.
Kim wrote:
[...] but if you are anything like me, you find yourself heading off to bed some nights and it is then that the mind really crank into gear...all of a sudden out of the blue the ahh haa! moment comes...I guess it does not matter either way because in the end there is always a solution :D
[...]

Yes, I also believe it really doesn't matter. I even don't know when my ideas come - they are just there... Image

Nick wrote:

[...] I don't think you could ever replace the good old file!
No way! If there were no files I just had to make one or two of them! :roll:

_________________
Markus

To be stupid is like to be dead. Oneself will not be aware of it.
It's only the others who suffer.


Last edited by charangohabsburg on Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 1:35 pm 
Offline
Blackwood
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:25 am
Posts: 1649
Location: Switzerland
charangohabsburg wrote:
[...]
The differently oriented nuts in the upper part of the picture above allow to screw in two rods...
Image

...which will allow to hold down the aluminium profile to the base board (finally!),
[...]


This is the view of the assembled thing:
Image Image

On the opposite side the aluminium bar gets held down in a similar manner:
Image Image

By the way: these nice knurled wooden knobs are just centre drilled cut-offs from chequered gluing dowels.

This ugly hunk of plywood at the end of the aluminium bar has the function keeping the upper wedge (which clamps the saw blade) in it's position (horizontally). The horizontal component of the force applied to the saw teeth when pushing the wood over the saw blade gets taken on by this ply wood piece, transmits it to the aluminium bar and to the pivot point of the aluminium bar (8 mm beech dowel - remember?). For this it also provides a vertical T-slot bar - less than ten pictures will explain better what I could not even tell with 10000 words...

Blade down:
Image Image

Blade up:
Image Image Image

The T-slot bar:
Image

Making the T-slot bar:
Image Image

Assembling the plywood hunk to the wedge and aluminium bar:
Image Image Image Image Image

The whole thing during assembly:
Image Image

At the moment the glue which will hold together the parts of the saw table is hardening. I hope that I will get the saw working this weekend although a bunch of clamping accessories will be missing yet. Image

_________________
Markus

To be stupid is like to be dead. Oneself will not be aware of it.
It's only the others who suffer.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 10:24 pm 
Offline
Blackwood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:31 pm
Posts: 1623
Location: Washington, USA
Brilliant!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 9:44 am 
Offline
Blackwood
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:25 am
Posts: 1649
Location: Switzerland
Lillian wrote:
Brilliant!

Thanks. Are you still lusting for the Jointmaker or do you want now one like this? :lol: Well, this one will not cut compound mitres, maximum cutting height is only about 25 to 32 mm instead of the 45 mm of the Jointmaker, and the maximum cutting depth is 70 mm instead of 150 mm. I hope yet my model will still be ok for doing many more things than just cutting fret slots and kerfing linings. ;)

_________________
Markus

To be stupid is like to be dead. Oneself will not be aware of it.
It's only the others who suffer.


Last edited by charangohabsburg on Mon May 09, 2011 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 5:18 pm 
Offline
Blackwood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:31 pm
Posts: 1623
Location: Washington, USA
Actually I think it will cut compound miters. You just haven't built the fixtures yet.

One like that would be fantastic. I'm still trying to get my head around what you've done. And I will eventually. Right now things are a bit fuzzy here. The plague has descended the household in a big way. We have been sitting home and watching movies most of the week. I was able to put down the cough syrup and actually go to work. Fran seems to be enamored with this bug. She's not letting go, or its not letting go of her.

You didn't happen to take measurements and make notes while you were putting this together, perchance?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 10:55 pm 
Offline
Blackwood
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:25 am
Posts: 1649
Location: Switzerland
The problem with doing compound miters using jigs would be good clamping which seems to be essential for using such a saw successfully. Probably on a miniature basis (up to 10 x 10 mm sticks, and not too long), sawing compound miters with shallow passes will render acceptable results.

When I'm done I'll draw detailed plans of that bugger and hope it will be better understandable with them.

_________________
Markus

To be stupid is like to be dead. Oneself will not be aware of it.
It's only the others who suffer.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 12:15 pm 
Offline
Blackwood
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:25 am
Posts: 1649
Location: Switzerland
As this is supposed to become a table saw showing the table is overdue. What seams to be two pieces of perforated plywood in reality I managed to build much more complicated. I don't trust in stability of plywood. Of course, plywood is strong but I have not seen many pieces of ply which have not warped over time. I have not a nice stock of seasoned ply, so I thought MDF which I never have seen warping would again be the material of my choice, this time for the table.

Here the hightech table, not just plywood:

Image

Bottom side and top side of it's interior in construction (at more or less the same moment) :
Image Image

...and a little bit later:
Image Image

Bottom side after the building stage above:
Image Image

I have glued in all this precious inlay with epoxy. Epoxy which will be the most expensive part of the whole saw! :shock: :lol:

After transferring the hole positions to the the rail carrier I cut the semi finished table apart, right through the middle:
Image

...planed two nice bevels an the edges towards the blade:
Image

And glued a 2mm plywood on top of the MDF/beech/aluminium composite, and a 1mm ply on it's bottom (one after another, using slow curing epoxy and steel needles as locating pins) :
Image

The locating pins came out easily by heating them a bit up with a lighter (no picture).

This is what the table looked like after gluing on the plywood:
Image Image

One of the basic clamping mechanisms will be screws getting stuck through those slots in the table (top side and bottom side) :
Image Image

I covered the bottom side of the screw guides with a perforated plywood which will let fall down the saw dust but not let the screws lower than the guides when mounting them:
Image Image

Of course, the table will get screwed onto the rail carrier. Screwing into the plywood parts is not an issue. But screwing into MFD is virtually impossible - well, of course I could, but it would not hold much stronger than a screw in a newspaper. So I embedded some 15mm beech dowels fitted with M4 drive-in nuts:

Image Image

_________________
Markus

To be stupid is like to be dead. Oneself will not be aware of it.
It's only the others who suffer.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 12:30 pm 
Offline
Blackwood
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:25 am
Posts: 1649
Location: Switzerland
Some pictures of the crank construction which is basically the same I used when building my swivel vice

The wheel between the crank and the wooden bearing block is a counter nut.
Image
Image
Image

The whole thing:
Image

With the wedges etc. mounted:

Image
Image
Image
Image

This Sunday (European time) will be mounting and inauguration day :D

_________________
Markus

To be stupid is like to be dead. Oneself will not be aware of it.
It's only the others who suffer.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 8:21 am 
Offline
Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:32 pm
Posts: 4380
Location: South of Perth WA
Incredible stuff Markus, the table is a work of art. 8) :cl :cl :cl

Cheers

Kim


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 9:51 am 
Offline
Blackwood
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:25 am
Posts: 1649
Location: Switzerland
Kim wrote:
[...] the table is a work of art.

It has a nice tap tone. :mrgreen:

_________________
Markus

To be stupid is like to be dead. Oneself will not be aware of it.
It's only the others who suffer.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 10:11 am 
Offline
Blackwood
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:25 am
Posts: 1649
Location: Switzerland
Finally.

A few minutes before midnight I managed to make my first few centimetres of jiggle wood. 8)
Image

This is the finished saw:
Image Image Image

The first big problem was NOISE! :shock: ...of the crank! :lol: I had forgotten to lubricate the gear. :oops:

I also made first improvements before assembling the saw the first time. I beefed up the flimsy wooden blocks at the rear (which hold the nuts which retain the the bar from unwanted pivoting when moving the table backwards) :
Image

And I also incorporated the first "dust control device" - it prevents the sawdust from falling into the T-slot:
Image

There will be two more sawdust covers to protect the rotating gear and the sliding surface of the wedges. Fortunately the drawer slides never will see a single shaving. Clever design, isn't it? :mrgreen: Oh well, I think this one was just beginner's luck. ;)

_________________
Markus

To be stupid is like to be dead. Oneself will not be aware of it.
It's only the others who suffer.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 12:01 pm 
Offline
Blackwood

Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 7:20 pm
Posts: 274
Location: Auckland NZ
Crikey! Markus,

As this obviously is actually part of the LHC, where do the mesons and bozons come out?

Seriously though, I admire your patience and its nice to see other people use wood for engineering things, everyone else I know would have used (or tried to use) metal for most of the bits and pieces.

Look forward to seeing lots more wiggle wood and watch out for your fingers!

Cheers

_________________
Richard@seeaxe


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 1:23 pm 
Offline
Blackwood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:31 pm
Posts: 1623
Location: Washington, USA
:cl

Seriously, it's phenomenal. It's a fantastic feat of engineering. And considering you were using less than ideal material. What you have created is just brilliant. And add in the fact you have shared it all with us just speaks volumes about you and about this forum.

Thanks. Now have a cold one on us.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 11:32 am 
Offline
Blackwood
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:25 am
Posts: 1649
Location: Switzerland
Thanks for all your kind comments.

seeaxe wrote:
As this obviously is actually part of the LHC, where do the mesons and bozons come out?

Ah, you mean the beer.. Just walk over to the fridge :mrgreen:

seeaxe wrote:
Seriously though, [...]

...well, I think I still have to build the Heineken interface :gui


seeaxe wrote:
I admire your patience and its nice to see other people use wood for engineering things, everyone else I know would have used (or tried to use) metal for most of the bits and pieces.

I just don't have the metalworking skills and tools. It surely had gotten a bit smaller making it out of metal, and I would have cranked out 10 or 12 millimetres more maximum cutting height (which does not sound like much but would be 50% more).

seeaxe wrote:
and watch out for your fingers!

Normally I cut my fingers with an asparagus peeler or another not sharp enough kitchen tool. Seriously, this saw is less dangerous than a hand held Japanese or not Japanese saw. At a rough estimate it would take at least 5 passes to cut a finger off, and I had to clamp it into position because the slightest change in position from one pass to the next leads to binding.

One of the best things of this type of saw ist that there's really nothing like slipping as the cutting process is totally effortless, with no distracting noise, and the blade can't grab the finger like a powered blade can.

Lillian wrote:
[...] And considering you were using less than ideal material.

When starting this project, in spite of knowing of bandsaws made of plywood etc. I also thought that MDF and plywood would not be the ideal materials. As I already mentioned, making it of metal would have opened more possibilities. But on the other hand, MDF does not distort (just as metal), and plywood is strong. A mix of both (plus some real wood and a few metal parts) was inevitable. The big plus on this MDF-plywood composite is it's high damping properties. I believe that this saw is even quieter than the original Jointmaker! It doesn't sound any louder than dragging a heavy book over the dining table, and any snoring person makes more noise. Maybe my choice of material was more than ideal but I really didn't know it when I started, I just thought it must be possible like that and jumped in.

_________________
Markus

To be stupid is like to be dead. Oneself will not be aware of it.
It's only the others who suffer.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 6:50 am 
Offline
Blackwood
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:25 am
Posts: 1649
Location: Switzerland
A surrealistic - meditative journey along a kerfed lining:



Here my YouTube-text:

Markus on YouTube wrote:
A surrealistic - meditative journey along a kerfed lining.

If your meditation is good, after some time you will hear beautiful music arranged and played by the Bolivian musician Paúl Paulino López, recorded on his 2001 Swiss concert tour with William Ernesto Centellas in Zürich. More info on this at www.centellas.com

The manual table saw is a shop made copy of the patented and pricey Jointmaker Pro v2 from Bridge City Tool Works (hence my saw's nickname "Jointapprentice Hobby a1 - where "a" stands for "attempt" ). No commercialization of the original Jointmaker idea allowed until the patent expires (which will be the case in 20 to 25 years after patenting). More info on the original at http://www.bridgecitytools.com/default/tools/jointmaker/jmp-v2-jointmaker-pro.html

The patent features some good drawings of the original Jointmaker. Unfortunately I discovered them too late, I gathered all the information from the Jointmaker videos on YouTube.
Here is the patent with it's drawings.

My own, home made version is mainly made of MDF and plywood, the "heart" of the tool is a Japanese sawblade which does the perfect kerf for the frets on an instrument's fingerboard (my thanks for this hint go to Pete Howlett, www.petehowlettukulele.co.uk), while the "lung" of the tool are two pairs of drawer slides (those cheapos with the flimsy linear ball bearings).

The capabilities of the my copy does not include combined mitre cuts (unless very tiny ones and if you make a jig for this task) and it's cuts are limited to a maximum height of approximately 23 - 32 millimetres (this depends on the blade's rising angle) compared to ca. 40 mm on the original. Workpieces can be up to 73 mm deep, when cheating (= not using the whole blade) up to ca. 170 mm. Maximum cutting height at one stroke (with very soft woods only) is 12 mm.

The gizmo for feeding the lining I made after an idea I have from the Italian world class luthier Luca Waldner ( www.lucawaldner.com), back in the times when he had the guts to run an own Internet forum and had some really useful hints online.

You can find details and lot's of pictures about the building process on the ANZLF (Australian New Zealand Luthiers Forum, viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3128 [this thread])

Any questions about the saw or the music and the musician are welcome.

Any intelligent comments are welcome.

Keep all stupid comments for yourself unless you are a well respected ANZLF member.

Thanks for watching, listening, reading and for your patience!

_________________
Markus

To be stupid is like to be dead. Oneself will not be aware of it.
It's only the others who suffer.


Last edited by charangohabsburg on Wed May 18, 2011 9:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 36 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC + 10 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group