pickup for falcate classical or steel string?

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JurgenV
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pickup for falcate classical or steel string?

Post by JurgenV » Wed Apr 19, 2023 4:49 am

I´m buiding now for quite some time guitars (up to now around #20). After just giving them away for a long time I finally managed quite recently to sell 3 of them (actually kind of by coincidence). Quite often people had been asking why I don´t guitars with a pickup system as none of my guitars had a pickup.
Probably it´s time to give it a try. BUT

I have to admit I don´t have a clue about pickups at all. So I come with some basic questions:
which system I should use (one source, two sources)?
is there a brand which is recommendable?
are there recomendations on what to use for a classical or a steel string or can I use the same system for both?
if there is an influence on the bracing system on the results?
how do you minimize the influence of the pickup on the performance of the guitar if you don´t use the pickup?
how do you stop cables inside the guitar from making noise due to the vibrations?

If there is someone to give me some kind of direction for research or some recommendation I would really appreciate this.

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kiwigeo
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Re: pickup for falcate classical or steel string?

Post by kiwigeo » Wed Apr 19, 2023 8:07 am

I use K and K western pad style piezo type pickup systems in all my guitars (classicals and steel strings).

https://www.kksound.com/
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WJ Guitars
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Re: pickup for falcate classical or steel string?

Post by WJ Guitars » Wed Apr 19, 2023 8:47 am

LR Baggs have just released a new pickup for steel string guitars at this stage I'm not sure whether this pickup is suitable for a classical guitar. It is called the LR Baggs HiFi Bridge Plate Pickup System. It has two senses, preamp with volume and tone controls and comes with a 9 volt battery bag that has velcro to attach inside the guitar at the neck joint. It will be selling for around $199.00 US dollars. The installation is easy and does not require using super glue to attach the two senses onto the bridge plate as does the K & K 3 senses pickup system does. It is recommended that an external preamp box should be used with the K & K pickup system to work effectively.

For more information about the LR Baggs Hi Fi pickup see links below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLEjGtRDesA
https://www.lrbaggs.com/hifi-high-fidel ... kup-system
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzWSq2Ra8zc

LR Baggs have the Lyric Microphone Classical guitar pickup system that fits inside the guitar box with a preamp with volume / tone controls plus has the 9 volt battery velcro bag. This microphone pickup system produces a very natural sound. See link below.

https://www.lrbaggs.com/acoustic-guitar ... tems/lyric

I have just order an LR Baggs HiFi pickup and it should be available in May 2023. It is highly likely that the LR Baggs HiFi pickup early orders will have already run out at this stage and that a batch new batch should be available around Sept / October 2023.

Wayne

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Re: pickup for falcate classical or steel string?

Post by WJ Guitars » Wed Apr 19, 2023 8:55 am

I forgot to mention to install the LR Baggs pickups eg the 'Lyric' Steel Sting version or the 'Lyric' Classical version in a falcate braced acouctic guitar is different to an 'X' brace guitar. See my install photos below.

Wayne
Page 1.jpg
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Re: pickup for falcate classical or steel string?

Post by WJ Guitars » Wed Apr 19, 2023 11:30 am

I also forgot to mention that other type of pickup systems that use a piezo pickup that is fitted under the guitar bridge saddle are likely to have issues. You need to be careful to correctly install the piezo in the saddle bridge slot to achieve proper contact under the saddle. They tend to give what is referred to as a quacking sound that is notice with rhythm style strumming and are not recommended to install in an acoustic guitar.

The K & K or equivalent products such as the 330 Prestige are very good, however, the LR Baggs pickup products in my opinion are very good and are my preference for installation in an acoustic guitar.

Another aspects to consider with acoustic guitar pickups are feedback issue that can occur when playing on stage with a loud band. Some times a feedback buster installed in the sound hole may minimise feedback problems. However, feedback issues can also be controlled using a good quality designed Acoustic Guitar D.I. box that has a notch control and parametric equalisers. This is the way to go.

From my experience as guitar player, sound engineer and recording engineer with some musicians acoustic guitar pickup sound quality can sometimes be an issue. For those musicians requiring a higher quality sound combining a piezo type pickup be it under saddle type or attached on the bridge plate used in parallel with a guitar microphone inside the guitar box or, a microphone attached externally to the guitar body can be blended together using a preamp fit suit for this purpose. For finger style playing the microphone and bridge pickup can be blended say 70% microphone and 30% bridge pickup and for live performance this is a great sound setup. For playing guitar solo or, rhythm with a loud band the blend can be changed to cut through with minimal feedback issues with a 70% blend setting for the bridge pickup and a 30% setting for the microphone.

The best sound for a acoustic guitar is always achieved using a microphone correctly located in front of the guitar or, two microphones positioned correct in front of the guitar that can create a stereo sound image. These setup generally do not work for live performance due to feedback and spill issues, except where a classical guitar solo performance is using a high quality sound system and a good sound engineer. The microphone setup is best used in the recording studio to achieve the best natural sound of an acoustic guitar.

Wayne

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Re: pickup for falcate classical or steel string?

Post by lamanoditrento » Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:04 pm

I recommend under saddle over transducers for falcate as the falcate braces can prevent ideal transducer location. Mind you I did install a K&K trinity pro recently and it sounded NICE.! But it only worked because I used a pinless bridge which allowed me to play with falacate placement in the design phase.
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Re: pickup for falcate classical or steel string?

Post by kiwigeo » Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:48 pm

I just managed to squeeze the pad transducers in between the falcate braces on the two falcate builds I fitted with K and K minis.
lamanoditrento wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:04 pm
I recommend under saddle over transducers for falcate as the falcate braces can prevent ideal transducer location. Mind you I did install a K&K trinity pro recently and it sounded NICE.! But it only worked because I used a pinless bridge which allowed me to play with falacate placement in the design phase.
Martin

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Re: pickup for falcate classical or steel string?

Post by WJ Guitars » Thu Apr 20, 2023 9:15 pm

kiwigeo wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:48 pm
I just managed to squeeze the pad transducers in between the falcate braces on the two falcate builds I fitted with K and K minis.
lamanoditrento wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:04 pm
I recommend under saddle over transducers for falcate as the falcate braces can prevent ideal transducer location. Mind you I did install a K&K trinity pro recently and it sounded NICE.! But it only worked because I used a pinless bridge which allowed me to play with falacate placement in the design phase.
The piezo ‘K & K' or 'JJB 330 Prestige' three mini sized pad pickups can be installed on the bridge near the bridge pins on a falcate braced acoustic guitar as has been mentioned. However, these pickups do not completely express the true natural sound of a acoustic guitar. Generally, they are very good for acoustic guitar amplification when used with an external preamp. From my experience and working with some musicians these pickups sound better than the under-saddle piezo pickups that tend to have the quacking sound issue that is noticeable with heavy rhythm strumming.

The new ‘LR Baggs HiFi Bridge Plate Pickup System’ is great and only has two pads that can easily be installed on the bridge plate of a falcate braced guitar in the correct location above or below the bridge pins between the ‘E 6th’ and ‘A’ strings and the ‘B’ and “E 1st’ strings. No super glue is required! The ‘HiFi’ pickup also comes with its own preamp that includes a volume and tone control.
I have installed the ‘LR Baggs Lyric Microphone’ on many falcate braced guitars, see photo as posted. The sound quality is excellent. Musicians seeking a more natural acoustic guitar sound also like this pickup.

Other Acoustic Guitar Pickup Setups
I have also installed both the 'Lyric Microphone' and the 'JJB 330 Prestige' pickup together for a blended sound in a steel string acoustic guitar that has a falcate braced top. This involved fitting the ‘JJB 330 Prestige’ pickup on the falcate bridge plate below the bridge pins and the ‘Lyric Microphone’ above as shown above in this posting. (Note: The ‘LR Baggs Anthem’ pickup is an alternate option for a duo pickup system that has a piezo under-saddle pickup and microphone setup with volume blend controls. The ‘Anthem’ duo pickups are sent to a combined single mono output).

The ‘JJB 330 Prestige pickup output cable is soldered onto the ‘Lyric Microphones’ circuit board. The ‘Lyric Microphone’ has a stereo connector with the tip, ring and sleeve. The tip contact is used to send the ‘Lyric Microphone’ output and the ring is used to send the other pickup to a external two channel preamp. There is a terminal on the ‘Lyric Microphone’ circuit board to connect to the ring contact. See photo below.

This type of setup works very well and takes the steel string acoustic amplified sound to another level that musicians love. The ‘Lyric Microphone’ and the ‘JJB 330 Prestige’ pickup systems can be blended together using an external two channel preamp that can be connected to a sound system. Two channel preamps such as the ‘Grace Felix 2’, ‘PZ-PRO’ or, the ‘K & K Quantum Blender are designed for two channel acoustic guitar pickup systems that work very well when connected to a sound system.

The Grace Felix 2’ has notch and parametric eq controls, plus a variable phase control to align the two pickups in phase that are spaced apart. This preamp has a feature to select and match the input impedance that will maximise the performance of the two pickup systems. This two-channel preamp is a great tool to craft the guitar sound to suit room acoustics with a sound system and overcome feedback problems.

I will be installing the ‘HiFi’ and the ‘Lyric Microphone’ together on my next guitar build. I will be connecting the wiring in such a way that only one 9-volt battery will be used to power both of these preamps.

Wayne
Lyric Circuit Board.jpg

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Re: pickup for falcate classical or steel string?

Post by WJ Guitars » Fri Apr 21, 2023 5:44 pm


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Re: pickup for falcate classical or steel string?

Post by kiwigeo » Fri Apr 21, 2023 5:51 pm

Thanks for the detailed run down Wayne.
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Re: pickup for falcate classical or steel string?

Post by WJ Guitars » Sat Apr 22, 2023 9:38 am

kiwigeo wrote:
Fri Apr 21, 2023 5:51 pm
Thanks for the detailed run down Wayne.
Martin your comment is appreciated.

I have included photos of my acoustic guitar sound rig.

Wayne
Acoustic Guitar Sound Rig01.jpg
Acoustic Guitar Sound Rig02.jpg

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Re: pickup for falcate classical or steel string?

Post by Dave M » Sun Apr 23, 2023 1:45 am

Yes Wayne thanks for the effort.

I'm not into amplifying as yet but if and when I do yours will be the reference material I'll use.


Cheers dave
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Re: pickup for falcate classical or steel string?

Post by WJ Guitars » Sun Apr 23, 2023 8:37 am

Dave M wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 1:45 am
Yes Wayne thanks for the effort.

I'm not into amplifying as yet but if and when I do yours will be the reference material I'll use.


Cheers dave
Thanks Dave for your comment. The two channel preamps that I mentioned are expensive, however, if you are aiming for a higher quality sound and better audio control then I recommend these 2 channel preamps listed. For a lesser cost using a single pickup setup I would recommend the 'LR Baggs Para Acoustic D.I. Box or, the LR Baggs Venue D.I. Box' as they have notch and mid range eq sweep controls.

When I complete my next acoustic guitar build over the next few months I will post in the forum photos and sound samples of the the 'Lyric Microphone and HiFi pickup' setup showing how they are installed.

Wayne

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Re: pickup for falcate classical or steel string?

Post by WJ Guitars » Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:29 pm

More information on installing the ‘LR Baggs Lyric Microphone’ in a Falcate braced acoustic guitar

The ‘Lyric’ microphone is a PZM (Pressure Zone Microphone) design. This is based upon a boundary zone principle where the microphone’s charged plate is positioned slightly above the falcate braced top. Generally, positioning the ‘Lyric’ inside the guitar box works well. On ‘X’ braced guitars the ‘Lyric microphone is placed parallel close to front of the bridge pins. For details refer to ‘LR Baggs’ installation documentation. This is not feasible to install the ‘Lyric’ microphone parallel to the bridge pins in a falcate braced guitar. Rotating the ‘Lyric’ microphone 90 degrees resolves this problem as it is important to have the ‘Lyric’ microphone installed attached to the soundboard top for the PZM principle to work. See photos in this posting.

For a 14-fret body joint falcate braced guitar it is necessary to install a spruce patch flush to the bridge plate to mount the ‘Lyric’ microphone correctly. For a 12-fret body joint falcate braced guitar the bridge and bridge plate are located further away from the sound hole and therefore, the ‘Lyric’ microphone can be mounted directly onto the sound board between the bridge plate and the sound hole brace.

The ’Lyric’ microphone as mentioned works on a PZM principle and is suitable for working inside the guitar box compared to other types of microphones installed inside the guitar box that have either a ‘omni’ polar pattern or, a cardioid polar pattern that require serve cuts in the low and low mid frequency range to work. This is not helpful when aiming to retain the warmth in the low and low mid frequency range.

Another aspect to consider is the musician playing the guitar with a microphone installed inside the guitar box. The microphone’s micro phonics may be an issue if the guitar is roughly handled. Generally, the micro phonics is not a problem with careful users when playing the guitar. For tapping or, drumming on the guitar box the 'Lyric' microphone also works well when amplified.

Wayne

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Re: pickup for falcate classical or steel string?

Post by WJ Guitars » Tue Apr 25, 2023 8:58 am

I also need to mention regarding micro phonic noise handling issues with microphones inside the guitar box can be a problem with acrylic or plastic type guitar strap button holders that are mounted on the guitar body causing unwanted noises with the guitar strap. Using a metal guitar strap button minimises this issue.

Wayne

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Re: pickup for falcate classical or steel string?

Post by WJ Guitars » Tue Apr 25, 2023 7:26 pm

Here is a youtube video link produced by Aaron Short Music that compares the sound of an acoustic steel string guitar with a number of playing styles of the following type of pickups with no processing.

Neuman KM 184 Mic
LR Baggs Anthem 100% microphone
LR Baggs Element pickup
The New LR Baggs HiFi pickup

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4tR7dPtuGE

Wayne

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Re: pickup for falcate classical or steel string?

Post by JurgenV » Sat Apr 29, 2023 12:37 am

Thanks a lot Wayne. That´s a very detailed answer which helps me a lot.

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Re: pickup for falcate classical or steel string?

Post by WJ Guitars » Sat Apr 29, 2023 11:46 am

JurgenV wrote:
Sat Apr 29, 2023 12:37 am
Thanks a lot Wayne. That´s a very detailed answer which helps me a lot.
I hope that this information will be helpful to you. There are a lot of acoustic pickup on the market and what is important is to find what suits your client. Some musicians are looking for a natural acoustic guitar sound and many are seeking this result while other musicians want there acoustic guitar to cut through the mix with a band and sometimes a acoustic guitar designed magnetic pickup may be work better. You can have the best of both systems using the two channel blend method with a microphone in the box and a magnetic pickup across the sound hole. It often comes down to what the budget can afford and the audio quality sort after.

Wayne

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