new to the forums~ Cole Clark

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jmuller92
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new to the forums~ Cole Clark

Post by jmuller92 » Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:04 am

hey everyone,
im jake, in year eleven and am going for my first build in my major work for year 12. i aspire to make something similar to the cole clark fl1a. can anyone help me out with the different processes cole clark use? or any general info?

thanks,
jake

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Post by Bob Connor » Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:20 am

G'day JakeSounds loke you've picked a very ambitious project and I wish you the very best with it.

That Cole Clark guitar is based on a dreadnought shape.

Cole CLark use a different technique for bracing their tops than traditional builders.

Image

Heres a pic
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SteveF
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Post by SteveF » Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:36 am

Hey Jake,

Good to seeya here Jake..........

Well you're going to need plans, so look through these

http://www.grellier.fr/plans.php?lang=en..... they're free and might suit you

better than trying to copy the Cole Clark.......Steve

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Post by gratay » Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:06 am

I'd get the book by Jim Williams if you want to build a steel string in the spanish heel method.

theres a few australian suppliers that have it available...heres a few

http://guitarwoods.com.au/catalog/index ... c234409b5b

http://luthierssupplies.com.au/product_ ... cts_id=135

I should really have a copy myself

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Re: new to the forums~ Cole Clark

Post by kiwigeo » Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:45 am

Hi Jake and welcome to the forum.

The guitar youve chosen to copy is maybe not a good choice for a number of reasons. The design is a bit radical in some areas and youd really want to get some specs from Cole Clark on same if youre going to copy them and have them work. The bracing for example is not standard and the face brace pickup is a patented product which would be impossible to duplicate without authority (and assistance) from Cole Clark. There are a few things I dont like very much looking at the pics of the internals of the guitar in question.....theres no bridge plate for example.

I always advise people making their first acoustic to stick with a conventional design and either start with a kit or a set method from one of the many books that are on the market.

Jim William's book is a good start if youre happy building a steel string using the Spanish Method (neck and top one integral unit, ie no neck joint). My first guitar (an OM flat top) was built largely using Jims method.

If you want to build with a neck/body joint then Campiano's book is a good start but make sure you read his website notes as hes updated some of his methods and philosophies since the book first came out.

Cheers Martin
jmuller92 wrote:hey everyone,
im jake, in year eleven and am going for my first build in my major work for year 12. i aspire to make something similar to the cole clark fl1a. can anyone help me out with the different processes cole clark use? or any general info?



thanks,
jake

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Post by sebastiaan56 » Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:16 pm

Welcome Jake,

Good luck on your first guitar. I will endorse all that everybody has said but will add that Cole Clarke is using what looks like flatsawn Bunya Pine for his tops. They also have a matt poly finish. if its the look of his guitars you like you could apply that to the designs people have already mentioned,

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Post by Allen » Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:11 pm

Glad to have you join the forum Jake. I'd also recommend that you stick with something a bit more main stream as far as bracing goes on your first guitar. There are just so many things to take into consideration when your putting a guitar together, that the fewer unkowns that you add to the mix, the better.

Ask lots of questions. The members here will be more than happy to give you advice.

Check at your local library for guitar building books. My local library has all the common, and some not so common books available for loan. I'd recommend that you read through several of them to familiarize yourself with different building styles. It'll give you an idea of what method that you'd like to follow. There are many different ways of putting an instrument together. Not one is necessarily better than another.
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Post by xray » Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:03 pm

Hi jake.
The Cole clark guitars sure look nice but to replicate one it would be fairly difficult because they use alot of CNC machining, especially on the inside on the back of the guitar. Next time you see one look at the inside of the guitar and compare it with another brand like Maton or Ashton and you will see a difference in the bracing and the carved out sections on the cole clark's as opposed to a flatter looking surface from a normal guitar.

I built my first steel string guitar over a year ago now and as a teacher myself, i understand how busy students need to be to achieve good results and this project of a guitar is certaily no exception. Heres my advice to get you through with some success:
1- Use this website as much as you need to and more. Explore the whole site and you will learn more than any book you can buy about tricks and how others have had problems they have overcome.
2- Pick plans from the site mentioned above and have a printer print them for you. (mine cost $9.00 last week for OM size plans)
3- My learning process started from you tube by typing in guitar making, and a guy named steve has a comprehensive tutorials to get your brain ticking and to show you whats involved.
4- Look for timber now and ask as many questions about it before you start, it seems simple but it can be expensive either way.

Overall Jake, if you put the work into it and mainly the research you should be able to pull it off. I bought Jim Williams book but it was not as good a guide as this website andthe you tube site for steves building.

p.s where do you come from? there maybe luthiers inyour area that can guide you and show you the process of one of their artworks in progress.
hope this helps

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Post by jmuller92 » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:02 am

hey guys, thanks for all the advice!

ok so i have never actually played a cole clark and it was more the look that i was going for to clear all that up. im not overambitious and i understand that it would be something major to pull of something that hasn't really been publicised. im a hard worker and passionate about guitars so i think thats going to be what helps me get through.

i have been quoted on timber already by tim spittle at australian tonewoods for about 550 dollars for the materials i will need to replicate the aesthetics of this guitar with regular bracing etc. let me know if thats unreasonable?

i actually live in tamworth and as far as im aware theres definitely no commercial luthiers about besides during country music, but if theres any members near by please let me know!

i've also got two books on order, guitar making: tradition and technology by cumpiano and building an acoustic guitar by jonathan kinkead. these seemed like a good overall base for beginning to learn the trade. what you guys think? i understand that everyone has their preferences with books, and each probably suits a different style of guitar...

anyway guys thanks again for all ur help

..jake

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Post by gratay » Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:15 am

they are both excellent books.
I think you'll find as you go that you will draw from all sources and not just one book..
I have taken equal parts from
Cumpiano
Robbie O'brien's DVD
Kinkaird's book
and just as importantly

forums like this one
and
Official Luthiers Forum
MIMF
and any other websites documenting someones build and or jigs

good luck and keep us posted with progress

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Post by kiwigeo » Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:56 am

jmuller92 wrote:
i have been quoted on timber already by tim spittle at australian tonewoods for about 550 dollars for the materials i will need to replicate the aesthetics of this guitar with regular bracing etc. let me know if thats unreasonable?

i've also got two books on order, guitar making: tradition and technology by cumpiano and building an acoustic guitar by jonathan kinkead. these seemed like a good overall base for beginning to learn the trade. what you guys think? i understand that everyone has their preferences with books, and each probably suits a different style of guitar...

anyway guys thanks again for all ur help

..jake
$550 is a fair bit for wood but youve obviously gone for top grade material.....you get what you pay for. Tims wood and service are second to none, hes one of my major wood suppliers.

Re books...Kinkaid is a good book. I dont like his method of holding the back/top on during glue up. He uses a a large plate made from 3mm MDF for this...I tried it and had problems with the plate actually deforming the top of the instrument. Better to use conventional clamping or make up a ring type caul that applies pressure only around the rim.

If youre using several books then be aware therell be conflicts in some areas of construction...each builder has their own way of doing some things. read all the books and then decide on a method youre going to use and stick to it.

Cheers Martin

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Post by gratay » Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:35 am

The Go-bar deck is a good option for what martin is talking about.
its handy for clamping braces, clamping tops and backs...

if you make one with an adjustable ceiling you can use it for a number of things.

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Post by Kim » Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:30 pm

Jake, welcome to the ANZLF :D

Good choice of books and an excellent choice in wood vendor. Tim Spittle is a very knowledgeable tonewood supplier. You can be assured of first class instrument grade wood resawn with the skill eye and hand of someone who understands precisely what is required by the luthier.

If you are paying $550, expect a first class package. Tim always offers very good value for money and will not disappoint. Please keep us posted on your progress.

Cheers

Kim

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Post by Allen » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:49 pm

I'll also will add that Tim is one of the top wood vendors that you'll find. If this is for all the wood that you'll need for the guitar, as say in a kit form, then you're pretty well on the mark for some first class wood and sundries.

It's possible to pick up everything for less, but it's a lot of leg work, and without experience you may end up paying more in the end if you decide to go that route.

Keep us posted with your progress
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Post by kiwigeo » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:59 pm

Kim wrote:
Good choice of books and an excellent choice in wood vendor. Tim Spittle is a very knowledgeable tonewood supplier. You can be assured of first class instrument grade wood resawn with the skill eye and hand of someone who understands precisely what is required by the luthier.
Its not all good....Just when Ive finished stacking and stickering a load of wood from Tim...he sends me another load!!! What a chore!!!!

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Post by jmuller92 » Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:27 pm

hey again guys,
guess im just a sitting duck until my books get here, just gotta read around and pick up as much as i can. thanks for the feedback about tim, all ive heard is good stuff about him. hes really helpful and seems like a good guy.

just a query, one of the main tools i dont have acces to is something to bend the sides with. has any anyone got any ideas or built their own home made tools for relatively cheaps prices?

thanks again

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Post by kiwigeo » Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:44 pm

Your choices are basically two fold:

1. Electric bending iron. Low tech but requires a bit of skill.
2. A Fox style bender which uses forms and either light bulbs or a thermal blanket as a heat source.

I have both in my shop and I use both equally.

If youre doing a one off build as a school project Id look at "borrowing" a bending iron or finding a user friendly luthier who is willing to help you out with side bending. If you were down here in Sth Australia I'd be happy to assist.

If you can afford it I'd go for an electric bending iron. Something like this: http://luthierssupplies.com.au/product_ ... cts_id=238

BTW what sortr of wide did Tim supply you with for back and sides?

Cheers Martin

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Post by Allen » Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:54 pm

The other possibility is to have the sides pre-bent. Tim may be able to help with that. A big time saver, and will save you a potentially large expense in bending iron or fox style bender.
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Post by jmuller92 » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:09 pm

yeh its just a one off for the moment. i can see myself pursuing it in my later years though :-) hmm borrowing a bending iron.. anyone know of a member in tamworth?

heres the quote list he sent me. tell me what you think:


Back and sides $150 Tas Blackwood Medium figure sanded to 2.5mm

Top $40 Bunya sanded to 3 mm

Fretboard $20 Mulga if slotting and radius require add $50

Neck blank plus heel block $50 Tas Blackwood or Qld Maple if requiring a shaped neck add $80

Bracewood $28 Spruce cut to size but not profiled

Bindings/purfling $30 Tas Blackwood not shaped

Fret wire $25

Nut and saddle $20 Bleached bone blanks/not shaped

Tuners $50-60 Grover Sta Tite

Bridge $10 Mulga blank/not shaped

Neck and tail block $15 Sassafras/Myrtle

Rosette $15 inlay material provided but not installed

Pick guard $15

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Post by kiwigeo » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:46 pm

Forgot that option...but I do believe this great nation's future is in a younger generation who are able to work a set of sides on a bending iron :mrgreen:
Allen wrote:The other possibility is to have the sides pre-bent. Tim may be able to help with that. A big time saver, and will save you a potentially large expense in bending iron or fox style bender.

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Post by Allen » Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:54 am

If you want to see a comparison of what you will get with a kit from Stew Mac, then have a look at their offerings here.

Stew Mac Kits.

You can also make your own bending iron out of a piece of pipe and a propane torch. There are lots of examples of how to do this on the internet. If this is a route that you might like to pursue have a look, and ask more questions if you get stuck.
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Post by Mark McLean » Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:53 am

Hi Jake
I am also a beginner and last night I got to the exciting stage of fitting the neck to the completed body of my first build. I have been doing this project with my son, Jack, who is in year 11 like you. I cannot give you the experience of the other experts here but I can give you the perspective of someone who has recently been through the stages you are up to now. It has been a tremendous experience and I am totally hooked on this hobby - already planning number 2 and number 3.

I bought the same books you did and they are both great. I also use Robert O'brien's DVD (from LMI) and lots of web sources. The tutorials here are tremendous. It is good to take advice and methods from multiple sources.

I agree with the advice already given to stick to a fairly standard design (I'm doing an OM) that you can get plans for. And don't try a cut-away for the first instrument.

You don't need to be a "sitting duck" while you wait for your wood and materials. Start making your mould, spreaders, and a go-bar deck (easy to do, very useful).

As mentioned, side bending will be your initial challenge. I bought pre-bent sides and this is a good short-cut. Since then I have bought a bending iron (about $200, from Gerard Gilet) and have used it to bend bindings. It takes some practice and you snap some before you get it right so you don't want to go it alone for your first time with your precious new tonewood. An alternative is to make a side bending form at the same time that you cut out the mould (uses the pieces of ply left over when you cut the mould). You would then need to buy a heating blanket. This link has a fairly simple looking bending form and I am going to go with this option for my next instrument.
http://luthiersforum.3element.com/pages ... bender.htm

You can get by without too many specialty tools, but some are handy. I bought a fretting kit, nut files and some fine saws that I didn't already have. You can never have too many clamps - all different sizes. A dremel tool is useful for lots of things and you can get fairly cheap specialty attachments for it online. Use good glue (Titebond rules). Whatever you do, don't use PVA glue. Watch the humidity, don't glue when it is raining!

I really hope you don't have a girlfriend. Jack was very committed to the whole guitar-building thing until a girl came into his life. Now the project has slowed down and I am mostly doing it solo!

Good luck. I hope you love it, learn heaps and cherish that instrument for a lifetime.

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Post by kiwigeo » Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:36 pm

Welcome to the forums Mark,

I noticed you lurking around a few times and was waiting for your first post.

A few comments:

1. Titebond comes in various "flavours".....myself and alot of other people prefer Titebond I.

2. The Dremel is a useful tool but of you start using it for cutting binding channels youll find its a bit short on horsepower. I use a Porter cable laminate trimmer for my binding channels and for my rosette channels I use a full size router and a circle cutting jig. The Dremel really only gets used for inlay work and cutting bridge saddle slots.

Cheers Martin

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Post by Mark McLean » Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:20 pm

Thanks Martin.
These forums are incredibly useful, and friendly. I have been lurking for some time but never felt qualified to contribute until Jake started a thread about how to be a beginner. I am experienced at that.

I agree about the Dremel being a bit gutless for cutting binding channels. I trimmed my plates with a large Black & Decker router with plenty of grunt. I then cut the binding channels with the Dremel and got some inconsistency of depth (tends to be a bit shallow around the bends). I didn't realize until after I had glued and scraped the bindings and found them a bit thin in some places. I don't want to start again so I will live with it and put the imperfection down to experience. Can you recommend something to use with my larger router that will give accurate depth in both dimensions? Is this a new question - should I start a new thread?

cheers

mm

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Post by kiwigeo » Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:51 pm

Mark,

Were you using a jig of any sort when cutting binding channels with the Dremel?

I used to cut my binding channels with a full size router and the Stewmac cutter/bearing kit. It worked ok but because the flat router plate was registering on the arched top and back of my guitars the cut wasnt always the same depth. Ive since gone to a Williams Style jig (made by Luhtier Tools) and a laminate trimmer. The idea is that you have a guide plate that matches the arch of the back or top and rides along same giving a constant depth cut.

You can make a similar jig for your B and D router using the plans from Jim William's book.

Cheers Martin

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