I just finished reading this post over at the Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum.
http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.y ... eresy.html
It's worth a read and worth the discussion particularly in light of another thread over at the OLF started by Dave White concerning whether "headroom" is an inherent property of a given type of Spruce or Cedar or whether the luthier has the most control over it in the way he or she designs and constructs their instruments.
With regard to the UMGF post, the author is a guitarist, not a luthier.
I totally agree with what he's saying. The more guitars that Dave and I build, the more they start to sound the same, regardless of the timbers being used. There are certainly more points of similarity than difference in what I hear any way.
We haven't set out to try and make them sound similar and we're generally quite un-scientific in our approach to construction. (No deflection testing machinery or Chladni patterns just manual flexing and tapping)
What I reckon will influence the sound will be (in order)
1) The builder
2) Size and shape of the guitar body
3) Soundboard - material and construction
4) Back and sides - material and construction
And the more you build, the more you refine and end up with a sound that's uniquely yours. Unless
you are trying to produce something that sounds like a Larrivee, Martin, Lowden, (insert your favourite luthiers name here)
If the guitar is for a customer you are always trying to match their playing style with the instrument that you are building, and trying to achieve a tone from the instrument that you believe that the customer will find pleasing.
What do you folks think?
Tonewood Heresy!!!
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Bob Connor
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Dave White
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Bob,
Jmagill has posted this on at least 5 forums to date. I was interested to read what Kevin Gallagher (a builder I have huge respect for) had to say on the AGF ( and got a lot of flack for):
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/foru ... p?t=133345
Basically he was saying that if a builder can't recognise and understand the important differences different b/s woods make they still have a lot to learn.
It's the ususal - it depends - in my (very humble) view having only made around 40 instruments so far. In particular it depends on what you mean by "sound". It almost means that although I see where you are coming from Bob, I can't complete a ranking list like yours or do a percentage allocation as some people do. How important is salt and seasonings to the taste of a meat dish? 100% - leave them out and it tastes crap. But how important is the choice of meat - probably 100% too.
I suppose I'd stop at your first item - the builder and what they do. Like you I hear a "signature sound" in all of my instruments irrespective of the size, materials, ladder or X braced, tapered or scalloped bracings. But then if I listen harder there are sublteties. Cuban mahogany has a very distint influence - clarity and note separation of mahogany but with a very strong reverby overtones and so on. It gets more focused in the extremes - as you go into baritone territory and tune right down you can hear a real difference between woods with good string separation - mahogany. walnut, maple - than one with really strong lush overtones - some rosewoods - and irrespective of how you try and compensate here., the b/s wood selection is going to be more important than on other instruments.
I think that the more we build the more these subtleties will come into play - as a chef learns and appreciates. It's also true that the more you build the less you know, even if you were to start in your teens and keep going into your hundreds (years not guitars) - and to keep this open mindedness is very important I think. There are too many mantras in this craft that you shouldn't always take at face value - but that's just me.
Jmagill has posted this on at least 5 forums to date. I was interested to read what Kevin Gallagher (a builder I have huge respect for) had to say on the AGF ( and got a lot of flack for):
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/foru ... p?t=133345
Basically he was saying that if a builder can't recognise and understand the important differences different b/s woods make they still have a lot to learn.
It's the ususal - it depends - in my (very humble) view having only made around 40 instruments so far. In particular it depends on what you mean by "sound". It almost means that although I see where you are coming from Bob, I can't complete a ranking list like yours or do a percentage allocation as some people do. How important is salt and seasonings to the taste of a meat dish? 100% - leave them out and it tastes crap. But how important is the choice of meat - probably 100% too.
I suppose I'd stop at your first item - the builder and what they do. Like you I hear a "signature sound" in all of my instruments irrespective of the size, materials, ladder or X braced, tapered or scalloped bracings. But then if I listen harder there are sublteties. Cuban mahogany has a very distint influence - clarity and note separation of mahogany but with a very strong reverby overtones and so on. It gets more focused in the extremes - as you go into baritone territory and tune right down you can hear a real difference between woods with good string separation - mahogany. walnut, maple - than one with really strong lush overtones - some rosewoods - and irrespective of how you try and compensate here., the b/s wood selection is going to be more important than on other instruments.
I think that the more we build the more these subtleties will come into play - as a chef learns and appreciates. It's also true that the more you build the less you know, even if you were to start in your teens and keep going into your hundreds (years not guitars) - and to keep this open mindedness is very important I think. There are too many mantras in this craft that you shouldn't always take at face value - but that's just me.
Dave White
[url=http://www.defaoiteguitars.com]De Faoite Stringed Instruments[/url]
[url=http://www.defaoiteguitars.com]De Faoite Stringed Instruments[/url]
I've got pretty limited experience here, but my observation is pretty much what yours are Bob. My 000's sound very similar, though built with different woods, but the best example that I have is the PJ's.
Back and sides on 2 guitars cut from the same plank of Qld Walnut and braced identically. Tops of different types, (Engelman Spruce and Australian Red Cedar ) but braced identically. One PJ made with African Mahogany and Sequoia. They sound different to the 000's, but similar to each other.
Between the 3 PJ's there is a distinct difference in the tone between the 2 built with Qld. Walnut and different tops. But here's the caveat. The mahogany / sequoia sounds much more similar to the Qld. walnut / spruce combo than I would have expected.
I suppose the next line of experimentation would be to use tops cut from the same plank and braced identically and change the back / side woods.
Who's up for the challenge?
Back and sides on 2 guitars cut from the same plank of Qld Walnut and braced identically. Tops of different types, (Engelman Spruce and Australian Red Cedar ) but braced identically. One PJ made with African Mahogany and Sequoia. They sound different to the 000's, but similar to each other.
Between the 3 PJ's there is a distinct difference in the tone between the 2 built with Qld. Walnut and different tops. But here's the caveat. The mahogany / sequoia sounds much more similar to the Qld. walnut / spruce combo than I would have expected.
I suppose the next line of experimentation would be to use tops cut from the same plank and braced identically and change the back / side woods.
Who's up for the challenge?
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Taffy Evans
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I'll get in here with this comment for what it's worth, and show what I try to base my tone search on in a later posting.
Many years ago when I was performing often, on stage at folk and /or blues venues I was using two guitars. One was a then, top of the line Maton 'dred' with rosewood back and sides, the other was my first build guitar a slightly smaller body honduras mahogany back and side guitar. Now whenever I would finish my set people would ask what was the second guitar I played, as it really stood out. Much to my pride and ego I could say it was an Evans guitar, this happened on many occaisions.
However I built another guitar using the same top batch as old #1, it had rosewood back and sides When I played these two guitars on stage there were no more comments after the set about the different sound of the guitars. I'd never thought about that until now.
Is it that often we develope a building style that compensates for the differences in the componants we are working with, and brings us to 'that sound' which for me is really in my head, when you hear it and, its right , you know it. If others are eaqually impressed I'll file that sound away for next time. However for me next time will mean different timber, different size and style of guitar, sometimes a different year, but I love the challenge. I remember reading about guitar acoustics and the writer said if you have top plates that flex like cardboard throw them out. This worried me as I had bought my first batch of tone wood sight unseen and although close grained where like cardboard. I decided then that if I changed whatever else I do in the building process I can make that top respond as if it was stiff in the first place. I have sold a lot of good sounding guitars [customers comments] with cardboard like tops.
Many years ago when I was performing often, on stage at folk and /or blues venues I was using two guitars. One was a then, top of the line Maton 'dred' with rosewood back and sides, the other was my first build guitar a slightly smaller body honduras mahogany back and side guitar. Now whenever I would finish my set people would ask what was the second guitar I played, as it really stood out. Much to my pride and ego I could say it was an Evans guitar, this happened on many occaisions.
However I built another guitar using the same top batch as old #1, it had rosewood back and sides When I played these two guitars on stage there were no more comments after the set about the different sound of the guitars. I'd never thought about that until now.
Is it that often we develope a building style that compensates for the differences in the componants we are working with, and brings us to 'that sound' which for me is really in my head, when you hear it and, its right , you know it. If others are eaqually impressed I'll file that sound away for next time. However for me next time will mean different timber, different size and style of guitar, sometimes a different year, but I love the challenge. I remember reading about guitar acoustics and the writer said if you have top plates that flex like cardboard throw them out. This worried me as I had bought my first batch of tone wood sight unseen and although close grained where like cardboard. I decided then that if I changed whatever else I do in the building process I can make that top respond as if it was stiff in the first place. I have sold a lot of good sounding guitars [customers comments] with cardboard like tops.
Taff
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Paul B
Ok so I'm on #5 and don't know shit, however;
Reading what's already been said, If the most salient point and biggest effect on tone is the builder and his methods; then: the first half a dozen guitars we build, the one's where I'm finding out how I build guitars. All the changing of methods and all of that nube stuff. That just clouds the issue and we nubes can't really rely on changing tonewoods to hunt down a specific sound because theres a bigger difference in how each guitar is put together and braced etc etc, and that overwhelms the differences in tone that alternative back and sides would impart? Is it better for a nube to just focus on building methods, say with some relatively cheap mahogany, and then explore different back and side woods when we start to hear "our" sound coming from each instrument?
Sorry guys I've totally got the bloody flu and I'm not sure that last paragraph makes sense to me either, but hopefully you'll get my gist.
Reading what's already been said, If the most salient point and biggest effect on tone is the builder and his methods; then: the first half a dozen guitars we build, the one's where I'm finding out how I build guitars. All the changing of methods and all of that nube stuff. That just clouds the issue and we nubes can't really rely on changing tonewoods to hunt down a specific sound because theres a bigger difference in how each guitar is put together and braced etc etc, and that overwhelms the differences in tone that alternative back and sides would impart? Is it better for a nube to just focus on building methods, say with some relatively cheap mahogany, and then explore different back and side woods when we start to hear "our" sound coming from each instrument?
Sorry guys I've totally got the bloody flu and I'm not sure that last paragraph makes sense to me either, but hopefully you'll get my gist.
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Taffy Evans
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Allen
The two guitars in question I still have and play, one built in 1977 Mahogany and the other 1980 Rosewood. I’ve just played them both as a comparison. To my ear they sound different, possibly have their own voice, but there is something that links them together. I then played another guitar 2004 [same body shape but cutaway] same rosewood batch as the 1980 but different top plate batch as the others. It also had its own character, but also had features in its sound that linked it to the others; I could not explain it to you. I then, for the hell of it, played my very latest guitar, a’000’ NG Rosewood/Cedar top 2008. It was strung up for the first time on Sunday. It defiantly has its own personality, but again it did not sound foreign to me it had that link something that made it a part of the team.
Now I’m not a educated guy that understand the physics of guitars and I’m not good with words, I seen 200 words that reviewers have used to describe tone, most of them do not give me a picture, so I won’t try that here. I could even be fooling myself.
Any way, feeling completely confused I got a customers 1995 very popular respected brand guitar from the repair shop [finished with new strings] and played same riffs and chords. The only thing I could say confidently is I noticed that it was not one of the team; I could not fool myself to thinking it was even though some qualities were similar. The sound did not project from the guitar, it sounded lost inside and I could not feel that guitar vibrating against my body.
I have included a check list of tone altering considerations that I have collected over the years and put on one sheet for reference, new builders my find this helpful. I don’t think the above will be much help.
May the tone be with you……
Tailoring Sound ……………………..1995
CONSIDER THIS WHEN BUILDING INSTRUMENTS
What effect size and density have on tone and strength and volume
• Remove 20% off of the height = 50 % less strength
• Taller Braces = Higher response [Treble]
• Stiffer Braces = “ “
• Thicker Timber = “ “
• Smaller Body = “ “
• Larger Soundhole = “ “
• Closer Grain [Stiffer] = “ “
• Flexible Timber = Lower Response [Bass]
• Longer Timber = “ “
• Smaller Soundhole = “ “
• Larger Body = “ “
Also………………
• Longer the Scale [string length] = The more string tension required
• Increase string length = Pitch goes down
• Increase the mass of the string = Pitch goes down
• Increase tension = Pitch goes up
Also……………….
• Timber [tone wood] with the longest ring and highest tone when tapped with a finger is best for use
• The difference [or ratio] of the frequency of the top and the back will have an effect on the response of the finished instrument
• The type and thickness of the finish lacquer will also effect the final sound
• Position of the main crossbraces [closer or further away from soundhole] can affect volume
• Plus a myriad of carving and positioning ideas of all other braces on both back and front plates
• But wait there’s more………………………………..
The two guitars in question I still have and play, one built in 1977 Mahogany and the other 1980 Rosewood. I’ve just played them both as a comparison. To my ear they sound different, possibly have their own voice, but there is something that links them together. I then played another guitar 2004 [same body shape but cutaway] same rosewood batch as the 1980 but different top plate batch as the others. It also had its own character, but also had features in its sound that linked it to the others; I could not explain it to you. I then, for the hell of it, played my very latest guitar, a’000’ NG Rosewood/Cedar top 2008. It was strung up for the first time on Sunday. It defiantly has its own personality, but again it did not sound foreign to me it had that link something that made it a part of the team.
Now I’m not a educated guy that understand the physics of guitars and I’m not good with words, I seen 200 words that reviewers have used to describe tone, most of them do not give me a picture, so I won’t try that here. I could even be fooling myself.
Any way, feeling completely confused I got a customers 1995 very popular respected brand guitar from the repair shop [finished with new strings] and played same riffs and chords. The only thing I could say confidently is I noticed that it was not one of the team; I could not fool myself to thinking it was even though some qualities were similar. The sound did not project from the guitar, it sounded lost inside and I could not feel that guitar vibrating against my body.
I have included a check list of tone altering considerations that I have collected over the years and put on one sheet for reference, new builders my find this helpful. I don’t think the above will be much help.
May the tone be with you……
Tailoring Sound ……………………..1995
CONSIDER THIS WHEN BUILDING INSTRUMENTS
What effect size and density have on tone and strength and volume
• Remove 20% off of the height = 50 % less strength
• Taller Braces = Higher response [Treble]
• Stiffer Braces = “ “
• Thicker Timber = “ “
• Smaller Body = “ “
• Larger Soundhole = “ “
• Closer Grain [Stiffer] = “ “
• Flexible Timber = Lower Response [Bass]
• Longer Timber = “ “
• Smaller Soundhole = “ “
• Larger Body = “ “
Also………………
• Longer the Scale [string length] = The more string tension required
• Increase string length = Pitch goes down
• Increase the mass of the string = Pitch goes down
• Increase tension = Pitch goes up
Also……………….
• Timber [tone wood] with the longest ring and highest tone when tapped with a finger is best for use
• The difference [or ratio] of the frequency of the top and the back will have an effect on the response of the finished instrument
• The type and thickness of the finish lacquer will also effect the final sound
• Position of the main crossbraces [closer or further away from soundhole] can affect volume
• Plus a myriad of carving and positioning ideas of all other braces on both back and front plates
• But wait there’s more………………………………..
Taff
Kim my friend at least be sure to shave first....... -
Stephen Kinnaird
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Allen, I've done that. It wasn't for an experiment, but at a customer's request. He sent me one set of Brazilian, and another set of wildly curly Koa from his own personal stash. (And just why can't we get more customers like that?!) I used sequentially cut Sitka tops, identical in every way. Braced them alike (bracewood was cut from same slab, etc.), same shape, everything.Allen wrote: I suppose the next line of experimentation would be to use tops cut from the same plank and braced identically and change the back / side woods.
Who's up for the challenge?
And the sound? Quite different between the two.
The Koa had a real sparkle...light, airy, shimmery.
The Braz was dark, rich, complex, and I'll say it again, dark. It had a sound that would really project, while the Koa was all in your face.
It would be fascinating to me to revist these guitars now, to see what age and "opening up" has done for them; if they've kept their uniqueness, or have moved more toward each other's sound.
Anyone have experience with that? (What time does in such an experiment?)
Steve
There are some great woods, down under!
Allen, do you mean Martin as in C.F. Martin the famous guitar company, or 'Martin' as in our very own Kiwigeo.....oh never mind, the stash would be around the same size anyhow.Allen wrote: Steve, what kind of customers do you have over there that have a tonewood stash that would make all of us envious. Well, everyone but Martin that is.
Cheers
Kim
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Taffy Evans
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Stephen Kinnaird
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Allen, I have no other customers like this one.Allen wrote:
Steve, what kind of customers do you have over there that have a tonewood stash that would make all of us envious. Well, everyone but Martin that is.
(I don't know what in the world a cow that can stand on two legs has to do with said comment, but it is an emoticon that doesn't get used enough!)
Anyway, this fellow has one of the largest private collections of handmade acoustic guitars anywhere. He is a doctor who prides himself in helping further the lutherie biz. (They are out there.) And as he has collected instruments, he has also collected tonewood. Lots of it. I was honored that he would trust me with two prized sets as he did. But it makes bending time a rather tense experience.
Steve
There are some great woods, down under!
[quote="Stephen KinnairdAnyway, this fellow has one of the largest private collections of handmade acoustic guitars anywhere. He is a doctor who prides himself in helping further the lutherie biz. (They are out there.) And as he has collected instruments, he has also collected tonewood. Lots of it. I was honored that he would trust me with two prized sets as he did. But it makes bending time a rather tense experience.
Steve[/quote]
Sounds like MY kind of doctor....a true patron of the arts.
Steve[/quote]
Sounds like MY kind of doctor....a true patron of the arts.
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sebastiaan56
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Stephen Kinnaird
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Ok, let's see if we can get one up:sebastiaan56 wrote: Steve,
How about a photo?
The Koa guitar is trimmed out in off-cuts from the Brazilian body, and conversely the Brazilian is trimmed out in off-cuts from the Koa body.
Even the neck pieces were cut from the same timbers:
mahogany, hard maple and rosewood.
Thanks for asking,
Steve
There are some great woods, down under!
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sebastiaan56
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Hi Steve,Stephen Kinnaird wrote: And the sound? Quite different between the two.
The Koa had a real sparkle...light, airy, shimmery.
The Braz was dark, rich, complex, and I'll say it again, dark. It had a sound that would really project, while the Koa was all in your face.
It would be fascinating to me to revist these guitars now, to see what age and "opening up" has done for them; if they've kept their uniqueness, or have moved more toward each other's sound.
fascinating how the visual and audio descriptions of the two guitars match so closely. Lovely guitars
make mine fifths........
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Stephen Kinnaird
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The check list is great Taffy thanks. Im only building my first guitar so I havent got much knowledge on the sound side of things yet. I guess that will come with time. It doesent matter how many books you read the tone part will only come with experience. You could read all the books in the world and build the best looking guitar its not much good if it sounds like crap.Different side,back woods different tone wood different bracing I think Im going mad.
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