Renaissance Lute

[Phoenexus71]

Hi everyone,

I'm taking on a lute building project and found this forum today, so hopefully I'll be able to find advice here as I work my way through the inevitable problems that occur in projects like this.

The lute I'm attempting is the six/seven course lute in David Van Edwards Rennaisance Lute course. Today, I started transferring the plans to MDF and building the mould.

Tonight, I'll read through kiwigeo's build log, which is what brought me to this forum in the first place! Thanks Google

First questions
- is it worth trying to make my own 1.5mm thick veneer for the ribs?
- what types of wood are readily available for this type of project in Australia? (eg. when I built my kayak, paulownia was the best option, rather than cedar)

[kiwigeo]

Welcome to the forum and welcome to the wonderful world of lutes. I can guarantee you'll have a whole lot of questions but luckily you've got a forum full of people happy to answer your queries and help you out. On to your questions:

1. Not sure what you mean by veneers for the ribs. The ribs on a lute are generally solid wood....not sure of any advantages in using veneer apart from adding a bit of stiffness.
2. For the soundboard on my build I used Swiss spruce. Since this is your first build and you're going to be following Van Edward's plans and dimensions (ie soundboard thickness etc). Both cedar and spruce were used on lutes traditionally....I've never managed to get too excited about cedar but that's partly personal choice. For the ribs you have more choice of woods but try and stick to woods that bend fairly easily. Indian Rosewood is always a safe choice on a first build....I used it mainly because I had a bunch of orphaned sides sitting on my shelves.

A few other comments:

1. While you're still at the mold building stage.....it's really important that you get the mold as accurate as possible, doing so will make laying up the ribs go a whole lot more smoothly.
2. When you come to cut out the rosette give some though to the tools you'll use for same and definitely cut a couple of test rosettes on scrap spruce before attempting the real thing ( I did seven complete test rosettes but that's me being anal). When making cuts along the grain you want to be using a cutting tool that is as thin as possible but not so thin that it has excessive flex in the blade. At the same time you don't want the blade to be too thick as this will lead to splitting along the grain as you make the cut. I ended up making a set of my own knives out of hacksaw blades. Cutting the curved parts of the rosette pattern is where it gets tricky...I was lucky and managed to find some Pfeil gouges that were the correct radius. The important thing is to do your test cuts and work out the best order in which to make the cuts and the best tools to use for the job.

[Phoenexus71]

Hi kiwigeo,

I'll just answer your comments below:

1. Not sure what you mean by veneers for the ribs. The ribs on a lute are generally solid wood....not sure of any advantages in using veneer apart from adding a bit of stiffness.

I was just talking about the 1.5mm thickness of the ribs - my terminology will be off while I increase my lexicon to include luthiery terms... Basically what I'm asking... with my kayak build I used a thickness planer to mill the strips down to 4mm. Lute ribs, according to the plans, are about 1.5mm thick (which is far beyond what my thickness planer can do). I was just looking to see if one can buy wood that thin or if I should attempt to do it by hand (which... frankly... horrifies me... though I'm happy to attempt it if that's the way to do it).

2. Indian Rosewood is always a safe choice on a first build...

Awesome! Now to find a supplier!

1. While you're still at the mold building stage.....it's really important that you get the mold as accurate as possible, doing so will make laying up the ribs go a whole lot more smoothly.

I'm 100% with you on this. I even used a laser level on my kayak to get everything lined up right.

2. When you come to cut out the rosette give some though to the tools you'll use for same and definitely cut a couple of test rosettes on scrap spruce before attempting the real thing ( I did seven complete test rosettes but that's me being anal). When making cuts along the grain you want to be using a cutting tool that is as thin as possible but not so thin that it has excessive flex in the blade. At the same time you don't want the blade to be too thick as this will lead to splitting along the grain as you make the cut. I ended up making a set of my own knives out of hacksaw blades. Cutting the curved parts of the rosette pattern is where it gets tricky...I was lucky and managed to find some Pfeil gouges that were the correct radius. The important thing is to do your test cuts and work out the best order in which to make the cuts and the best tools to use for the job.

Yeah, the rosettes are the other thing that terrifies me about this project. I'll be doing several test rosettes prior to touching the lute.

[kiwigeo]

I was just talking about the 1.5mm thickness of the ribs - my terminology will be off while I increase my lexicon to include luthiery terms... Basically what I'm asking... with my kayak build I used a thickness planer to mill the strips down to 4mm. Lute ribs, according to the plans, are about 1.5mm thick (which is far beyond what my thickness planer can do). I was just looking to see if one can buy wood that thin or if I should attempt to do it by hand (which... frankly... horrifies me... though I'm happy to attempt it if that's the way to do it).

The thickness you take your ribs to will depend on the wood you use. Basically you take the rib wood to a thickness at which you can bend it without difficulty. Youre not bending the wood around a very tight radius so you can take most woods a bit thicker than 1.5mm. Im not sure where you got that figure from....a lute top will get down to around 1.5mm around the vicinity of the rosette. From memory the Indian Rosewood ribs on my lute were up around 2mm thick.

Thickness planers....theyre useful for thicknessing blanks for solid body electric guitars but for acoustic builds thicknessing is better done with a drum sander or if youre doing it by hand, planes, scraper planes and/or scrapers. I do my rough thicknessing with a drum sander and final thicknessing is done with scrapers. On a lute top you're going to be varying top thickness from around 1.5mm around the rosette to closer to 2mm under the bridge. because the top thickness isn't uniform final thicknessing by hand is a must and a scraper is the best hand tool for the job.

[kiwigeo]

Awesome! Now to find a supplier!

Luthiers Mercantile International (LMI) in the US used to have "opportunity grade" Indian Rosewood side sets at a good price. Not sure if they still sell them. Failing that just look for lowest grade IRW side sets from any of the suppliers.

[Phoenexus71]

The thickness you take your ribs to will depend on the wood you use. Basically you take the rib wood to a thickness at which you can bend it without difficulty. Youre not bending the wood around a very tight radius so you can take most woods a bit thicker than 1.5mm. Im not sure where you got that figure from....a lute top will get down to around 1.5mm around the vicinity of the rosette. From memory the Indian Rosewood ribs on my lute were up around 2mm thick.

Thanks for the advice - I got the thickness from the course (see quote box below). Very glad to hear your rosewood ribs turned out fine at 2mm thick.

The thickness I recommend for this small lute is 1.5mm for sycamore and other light woods like yew or ash and 1.4mm for harder heavier stronger woods like rosewood and cocobolo or kingwood. If you are finding it very difficult to get a really smooth surface with a plane don't forget to allow a bit, say 0.1, or 0.2mm for sanding smooth later.

As for woods, the author recommends ash or plum for beginners and rosewood in the 'exotic' woods section, though all varieties are apparently on CITES now. I'm looking for something easy to source in Australia. Again, thanks for the advice!

Update - I do have a large stock of western red cedar (given to me by a friend who re-clad her home).

[kiwigeo]

A book I consider essential for lute making is Lundberg's masterpiece: http://www.luth.org/books/lute_book.html

[kiwigeo]

As for woods, the author recommends ash or plum for beginners and rosewood in the 'exotic' woods section, though all varieties are apparently on CITES now. I'm looking for something easy to source in Australia. Again, thanks for the advice!

Update - I do have a large stock of western red cedar (given to me by a friend who re-clad her home).

I think you'll find the WRC a bit soft for use as ribs. Tasmanian Blackwood would be one suitable substitute for rosewood as a rib wood.

[blackalex1952]

I have never made a lute. I am definitely in the amateur luthier camp, but learning with a passion. I discovered the other day that the local mens shed has a thickness sander! Worth checking out if there is one nearby. I have always used hand tools. Learn to sharpen quality hand planes and scrapers if you don't already know how. Make a thickness guage if you don't have one. My little bandsaw is solid and old. It has brass guides either side of the blade and bearings at the back of the blade I meticulously set it up, regularly square up the brass guides with a file and check the table is square to the blade, also the fence. I can rip a 2mm slice of wood, then hand plane it to 1.5 mm no problem. this is the sort of approach I would use. I'd take a piece of the material that I want to make the back out of, thickness it to the width of the back components, then finish plane along the edge which will run against the bandsaw fence (make sure it's square each time you do this step). Then a test cut to get a 2mm thick slice. Repeat the process of dressing the edge that will run on the fence and repeat until enough pieces are cut. That way, dressing each time would mean that only one face of the back pieces needs to be planed to thickness, ie the side with the saw marks. To thickness the 2mm to 1.5 mm You could use some 1.5mm thick guides double sided taped onto the edges of the plane, or even make a planing guide using similar shims. Double sided tape the blanks to a flat surface and plane the bandsawn surface until the plane no longer cuts because the shims will have set the height. Make sure the plane is sharp!!! Check with a thickness guage and use a scraper if necessary...hope that makes sense.
Fruitwoods are good especially pear or ornamental cherry along with maple, walnut, blackwood, mahogany, rosewood, lots of options...If you are in Melbourne, Mathews Timber in Vermont have a good selection.
I hand plane and scrape my soundboards.
I have a few experienced luthier friends who supply me occasionally, so even on my limited budget if I can't afford to buy wood I can visit and they let me tap and flex soundboard timbers. I have formed a preliminary opinion regarding Cedar. Good soundboard Cedar is rare. I plan to use some on a future build so I will buy some master grade with lots of medullary rays that I have tapped and felt. Most Cedar sounds pretty dead to me, but the good stuff is, well, great! I guess what I'm trying to say is, buy the best cedar you can afford. It seems to vary a lot. I have read that cedar gives an aged sound when still pretty new and develops faster than the spruces.Good luck with the rosette!!!!
Ross

[blackalex1952]

To correct my post,

Then a test cut to get a 2mm thick slice.

the thickness off the bandsaw has to allow for the depth of the kerf marks left by the saw cuts...so a test piece first! Ross

[TKAY]

It is good once again to see again a "different" instrument build.
I am continuing to build a lute with a very slow gestation, however a few thoughts to put into your mix for consideration.
For thicknessing ,make or buy a sanding drum ,possibly 50mm,Diam X 60mm high and use in a drill press. Not expensive and can give close tolerances
When bending ribs I made an iron with a 500w light tube, approx. 110mm long, and mounts ,fitted into a piece of 50mm s/s tube. It needs high temp cabling, such as on theatre lights. It works a treat for the narrow widths needed.
Never forget the teeth of a band saw blade are variable in width. Carefully hold an emery stick or similar to take the rogue spikes off. I use an oval grinder designed for scythes!! Make sure any dust extraction is turned OFF!!!
To obtain the appropriate angles for joining the ribs I bent them to fit with the suitable width, and made an upside down plane such as used for coopering it certainly gets one very close to the desired angles easily.
I certainly support the choice in Blackwood, easy to work and great to bend.
A website which has a mine of information is www.lutesandguiters.co.uk
I will follow progress with interest, best of luck.
Tom