Some news + designing a dream workshop?

[kiwigeo]

Envious

[blackalex1952]

From the look of the surrounding bushland, have you thought about bushfire safety and a fire plan. What is your water supply? An investment in a water bore, solar pump and an elevated gravity feed storage tank that won't be affected by fire is the ideal solution. A bore licence is a one off fee, not a yearly fee. Solar bore pumps are reliable and the modern ones run on DC motors at low revs so they last. A bore can add much more value to a property than its initial infrastructure cost.A fire pump inside the building with a fume exhaust of course, and a large fuel tank, or a battery powered pump which will deliver adequate pressure and can off run solar charged batteries, with effective sprinklers on the roof of the building would be the dream for a country workshop. If the bore water is close enough to the surface, there are other styles of pump which can deliver high pressure, depending on the "draw down" of the bore. If the pump and water system has the ability to run for a reasonable time and you have to evacuate, it really only needs to stop embers and the initial fire front, until you can return to deal with residual spot fires.You did say "Dream Workshop"! Fire hazard awareness and planning with the roof system and ember proof spouting is affordable and should be considered during the building stage. It would be a shame to loose all your investment, and the insurance cost long term would far outweigh these measures. -Ross

[demonx]

From the look of the surrounding bushland, have you thought about bushfire safety and a fire plan. What is your water supply? -Ross

The fire plan is to get the hell out!

The house needs a upgrade before we worry about the shed. Mostly an improved gutter system I can lock down and flood is the plan. I did want sky lights in the shed but removed them being fire conscious.

There is already 120,000 lt of rain water tanks off the house, this shed will have another 25,000lt tank. There is also a large dam down the hill with fire pump and underground pipe to the house with valves either side of the house to attach hoses. There is a 10+ meter clearing around the house with a few more trees to come out to complete that as a 10m clearing around the shed with exception of the rear boundary being only 5m however shed positioning was determined by the extreme hilliness of the block and this was the flattest part that we were allowed to build on, as the bottom of the valley which is somewhat flattish is flood zoned.

[demonx]

And a good vapour barrier under the slab, sometimes omitted cause "it's just a shed"

Turned out the cheeky buggers weren't going to do this and it was an upgrade.

It was done though.

[demonx]

Envious

If you were footing the bill that envy would soon disappear!

The price just keeps going up and up. It won't be finished how I would've liked as the budget has run out and it's funded by vapour now.

Initially I was hoping to get out of it for $50-60k (inc light, power, insulation etc) however it's looking like that number will be closer to 90k as through the permit stages there were a few curve balls thrown that chewed up a lot of funds. Tree removal and earthworks were a lot more than first estimated. I added an extra bay which jumped the price up as well. When the machines are $1000 a day and the job takes them a couple days longer than they guessed, stuff like that adds up quickly and it seems to be happening with every estimate I've got!

So the plan at this stage is to just get it up so I have a roof and work on the inside over the long term.

[blackalex1952]

The sprinkler system would still be a good idea. You probably know that fires burn rather quickly uphill. As to get the hell out" that is also my plan as I am in a high fire danger area where it would be nigh impossible to sort out any protection.
The cost of insuring all that gear, the instruments and the stored rare timbers will obviously be reduced if you have some good measures in place. Ember attack is the most likely issue, and control measures are not too expensive. So the idea would to figure out within reason the likelihood of a fire front coming up the hill suddenly relative to your exit strategy and the time it would take to safely leave.-Ross

[kiwigeo]

The cost of insuring all that gear, the instruments and the stored rare timbers will obviously be reduced if you have some good measures in place. Ember attack is the most likely issue, and control measures are not too expensive.

I'm in the Adelaide Hills and there's absolutely no incentive from insurance companies to install sprinkler systems etc.....your premiums are the same whether you have a system or not.

[simso]

Envious

If you were footing the bill that envy would soon disappear!

The price just keeps going up and up. It won't be finished how I would've liked as the budget has run out and it's funded by vapour now.

Think on the other side but, you wont have to pay extra rent for your work premises, work is a walking distance from the house but still seperated from the house, expansion can always happen, no extra rates to pay.

When I went to a commercial workshop, I was super excited, still am, but the extra premises costs takes the fun out pretty quickly

Steve

P.S. Its looking good.

[demonx]

The cost of insuring all that gear, the instruments and the stored rare timbers will obviously be reduced if you have some good measures in place. Ember attack is the most likely issue, and control measures are not too expensive.

I'm in the Adelaide Hills and there's absolutely no incentive from insurance companies to install sprinkler systems etc.....your premiums are the same whether you have a system or not.

Same here. They only care if I have a security system and window locks.

[blackalex1952]

Insurance discount or not, the idea is that sprinklers are relatively affordable given that the pump and infrastructure is already in place, and the time it would take to re establish, even with an insurance payout, would be substantial-resulting in a loss of business, loss of irreplaceable items etc.
CSIRO state that over 90 percent of all houses burnt in a bushfire are caused by ember attack and not radiant heat or flame.
Fire Protection Association (FPA) Australia state that a bushfire sprinkler system, or an external water sprinkler system, can be a major factor in protecting homes built in bushfire-prone areas. Sprinklers are a relatively small expense considering the overall cost, the DIY option would involve metal pipes and a couple of orbital throw large orifice sprinklers that could handle dam water without blocking. My friend saved his house that way. He didn't have much help, so was busy with spotting and collecting urgent documents and things that were not covered by insurance while the sprinklers ran. The wind had changed direction turning the fire back from my place so I drove to where he lived but the CFA would not let me enter, even though they were short of personnel due to the size of the fire. Two locals lost their lives in that fire. He had some old agricultural irrigation sprinklers that he obtained, not the smaller ones in the links below.
And besides, if the house and workshop are protected by a sprinkler system, you can spend your time putting out spot fires and can "get the hell out", possibly earlier, with a little confidence in the system working and returning to a manageable level of loss. If your property survives a major bushfire, you can also have the luxury of helping less fortunate members of the local community. That's what country people do. Cheers, Ross
http://www.emberdefender.com.au/
Watch the video on this site
http://www.bushfirepro.com/

[Ormsby Guitars]

I feel your pain. We have recently secured a nice big factory unit and every quote bar one was close to half the price it's actually costing. Only the spray booth is coming in cheaper than expected. And now I have a 30 minutes drive to work instead of a leasurely stroll out to the back yard. :/ But I can have a company car now

[kiwigeo]

Insurance discount or not, the idea is that sprinklers are relatively affordable given that the pump and infrastructure is already in place, and the time it would take to re establish, even with an insurance payout, would be substantial-resulting in a loss of business, loss of irreplaceable items etc.
CSIRO state that over 90 percent of all houses burnt in a bushfire are caused by ember attack and not radiant heat or flame.
Fire Protection Association (FPA) Australia state that a bushfire sprinkler system, or an external water sprinkler system, can be a major factor in protecting homes built in bushfire-prone areas. Sprinklers are a relatively small expense considering the overall cost, the DIY option would involve metal pipes and a couple of orbital throw large orifice sprinklers that could handle dam water without blocking. My friend saved his house that way. He didn't have much help, so was busy with spotting and collecting urgent documents and things that were not covered by insurance while the sprinklers ran. The wind had changed direction turning the fire back from my place so I drove to where he lived but the CFA would not let me enter, even though they were short of personnel due to the size of the fire. Two locals lost their lives in that fire. He had some old agricultural irrigation sprinklers that he obtained, not the smaller ones in the links below.
And besides, if the house and workshop are protected by a sprinkler system, you can spend your time putting out spot fires and can "get the hell out", possibly earlier, with a little confidence in the system working and returning to a manageable level of loss. If your property survives a major bushfire, you can also have the luxury of helping less fortunate members of the local community. That's what country people do. Cheers, Ross
http://www.emberdefender.com.au/
Watch the video on this site
http://www.bushfirepro.com/

Not disputing the effectiveness of a sprinkler system....just the comment that cost of insurance is lower if you have a sprinkler system fitted.
For the record Im right next door to the local fire refuge area where I live but I still have fire tanks and a petrol pump and fire reel set up regardless

[blackalex1952]

Please don't get me wrong, Martin. To clarify things, I'm not disputing anything you said, Martin. I hold your skills, your posts, the fact that you care enough to contribute and make an effort as a moderator and the help and mentoring that I have received from you and others through this great forum in the highest regard. You and all the other moderators and contributors, and those able to give financial support need to be acknowledged and thanked by all of us for this!
I'm just contributing to this wonderful forum. I have been involved this week with an OH&S team and have been creating specific documents and processes to simply implement a Personal Safety Analysis (or Job Safety Analysis-we call it a PSA) and Toolbox Meeting process for a workplace which involves a charity and has multilingual/multicultural international participants. So I'm thinking OH&S and realise that sometimes stating the obvious helps remind people when they assess priorities. (In the event of a fire near you, maybe you could get all those taking emergency shelter in the cleared area to look after a guitar each! They may even "join the dark side! Or better still, buy an instrument from you... LOL!)
Kind regards to all who read this, Ross

[kiwigeo]

Please don't get me wrong, Martin. To clarify things, I'm not disputing anything you said, Martin. I hold your skills, your posts, the fact that you care enough to contribute and make an effort as a moderator and the help and mentoring that I have received from you and others through this great forum in the highest regard. You and all the other moderators and contributors, and those able to give financial support need to be acknowledged and thanked by all of us for this!
I'm just contributing to this wonderful forum. I have been involved this week with an OH&S team and have been creating specific documents and processes to simply implement a Personal Safety Analysis (or Job Safety Analysis-we call it a PSA) and Toolbox Meeting process for a workplace which involves a charity and has multilingual/multicultural international participants. So I'm thinking OH&S and realise that sometimes stating the obvious helps remind people when they assess priorities. (In the event of a fire near you, maybe you could get all those taking emergency shelter in the cleared area to look after a guitar each! They may even "join the dark side! Or better still, buy an instrument from you... LOL!)
Kind regards to all who read this, Ross

All good Ross....was just clarifying the situation re insurance companies and the total lack of incentives they offer to get home owners to reduce their risk of losing everything in a bushfire....and having to claim huge amounts on their house insurance. Premium discounts would end up saving the insurance companies (and other insurance company clients) lots of money....

LOL.....you can spare the glowing accolades mate...they're appreciated but I'm really just a hack builder who occasionally surprises himself by turning out a passable guitar.

[demonx]

I feel your pain. We have recently secured a nice big factory unit and every quote bar one was close to half the price it's actually costing. Only the spray booth is coming in cheaper than expected. And now I have a 30 minutes drive to work instead of a leasurely stroll out to the back yard. :/ But I can have a company car now

No paint in this building. That will be an expansion down the track in the form of a decked out shipping container with explosion proof fans etc (I've already got the fans) behind the workshop.

Cheaper than building a real booth and it can be sold if I change how it's used. Or repurposed.

I still own the old workshop and land which is decked out with pallet racks and I'm now using as a warehouse for air drying green timber as that takes up way too much space, so once this workshop is up and running the total floor area including the "warehouse" is 387 sqm. Pretty sure I should be able to manage building the odd guitar with that.

[blackalex1952]

I'm really just a hack builder who occasionally surprises himself by turning out a passable guitar.

That might make a good signature!!!

[demonx]

Working away sorting out drainage ect, using logs, clay and mulch to redirect rainwater away from the site.

Mulch is product from branches that were cut down and some logs were put aside from the area to use later, so it's all part of the original landscape, just going back slightly different.

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[blackalex1952]

I'm wondering how you are using the logs. Are you burying them? I would be worried about them attracting termites.
What I'm writing here for the sake of things now I have thought of it, is some info on termites. This may help others who are looking to understand how to protect timber storage and buildings. The moderators might want to copy and paste the info into a new topic for reference. This is what I learned, it would be worth checking the facts with scientific reference, it's only what I was told, and heave learned by applying these principals. But the gist of things is certainly true, use common sense, vigilance and keep disturbing access routes. Then poisons and their expense and health hazards can be minimised.
There are more than one species of termite in Victoria. One species builds its nest above ground, the other underground. The underground nests are very difficult to locate. Nests in trees usually have termite mud at the base somewhere, and an interior nest can be confirmed with a wood auger bit. I know this because I had a termite expert examine a termite in my shed, identifying the kind by looking at its mandibles. Where I live, there are many nests and they can travel 200 -300 metres from the nest foraging.I didn't want to use chemicals when I first discovered them in my house subfloor years ago, as my partner was pregnant with our first daughter.. So I called in an alternative termite guy who filled me in on all sorts of things the poisons guys don't tell you, perhaps they don't know. Here is some of what he told me and what has worked for me. He was a scientist who got into this because his wife and new baby were ill. Tests on her breast milk indicated a high level of organophosphates. So he tested the soil under the house and found it contained those chemicals. He then did some tests inside the house and found that the chemicals were off gassing into the house itself. He moved house immediately.
Termites are very private and have a collective consciousness, a bit like some sort of a brain it seems...the whole nest gets the message some how! If you disturb them where they are accessing food they get the message and move somewhere else. They can't handle light and build tracks up floor stumps for example.Breaking access tunnels,regularly, and they go somewhere else. Often, termite surface damage is seen on wood that is still sound inside. It is the result of exploration only. Sometimes, when termites are inside wood, they can be heard with a stethoscope. An inspector will knock loudly on the timber then listen. The soldier ants will bang their mandibles on the sides of the tunnels. ( NZ translation, the do a Haka!) Termites need a high humidity level, their nests have a mud humidity cap for the purpose of humidity control and keep it damp. They like subfloor areas which are dark, close to the ground and have poor airflow. They don't like steel sumps and bearers. Termites can build nests under concrete slabs and can access the interior of buildings via cracks and expansion joints. The man who advised me offered, at a price, to locate the nests by placing wooden and paper traps be had designed in a perimeter around my buildings and around my property. Checking the traps for activity would indicate the direction of the nests. For a fee of course. But he also mentioned that vigilance was the real key, and common sense. Another thing he told me was to paint subfloor stumps with lime so tracks could easily be seen with a torchlight inspection. Easy to do as I spray lime in my apple orchard, on the trees after pruning. The key is to disturb them, they get the message, and to not provide unnecessary non inspectable food traps. He told me a story, don't know if it was true ( 'e was fair dinkum, but 'e was a Pom), of an old billiard table in Northern Territory, which was made of wood with wooden balls. Northen Australian desert ecology is totally dependent on the large termites there, they are a key to soil fertility and soil moisture depth, in charge of a carbohydrate soil ecology. Some one took a shot on the table after it hadn't been used for sometime. The ball that the cue ball hit split open and totally disintegrated as it was full of dust. ( Bulldust I imagine) The termites had tunneled up the leg of the table and across under the felt. The guy ordered another beer! -Ross

[demonx]

The logs are simply a retainer/boundary for the clay and mulch which is redirecting rainwater.

[demonx]

Floor insulation?

Two of the four rooms in the shed I plan on having a floating ceiling, wall insulation and now I'm considering floor insulation. These rooms will be timber/product storage and the main work room.

Carpet for woodworking purposes is ruled out immediately, I considered a floating bamboo or laminate floor however I've put together one of those before and it's very time consuming, not to mention knee and back breaking.

Now I'm considering a rubber backed vinyl floor as the rolls are 4m wide and just roll out. Ive never had a vinyl floor in any house I've lived in so I have little experience with them.

Does anyone have any knowledge as to if they provide insulation or would I just be wasting my money?

[demonx]

Ignore my previous post, some further research has shown that Lino offers no insulation benefit at all compared to the bare concrete. Go figure.

https://sizes.com/units/rvalue.htm

[kiwigeo]

Ignore my previous post, some further research has shown that Lino offers no insulation benefit at all compared to the bare concrete. Go figure.

https://sizes.com/units/rvalue.htm

The insulative qualities you're after for the flooring is to minimize heat loss into the slab?

A better idea is to take advantage of the thermal mass presented by the slab and use it as a heat bank. This will only really work effectively if youve insulated under and at the sides of the slab and have windows through which the slab is exposed to solar energy. To maximise use of the thermal mass of the slab you either leave it as bare concrete or have dark coloured tiles on top of same.

[demonx]

Ignore my previous post, some further research has shown that Lino offers no insulation benefit at all compared to the bare concrete. Go figure.

https://sizes.com/units/rvalue.htm

The insulative qualities you're after for the flooring is to minimize heat loss into the slab?

A better idea is to take advantage of the thermal mass presented by the slab and use it as a heat bank. This will only really work effectively if youve insulated under and at the sides of the slab and have windows through which the slab is exposed to solar energy. To maximise use of the thermal mass of the slab you either leave it as bare concrete or have dark coloured tiles on top of same.

Yes, to minimise heat loss, however on a budget. I had an insulated room in my old workshop which had earthwool in the walls and roof, it was effective however I felt the floor was a weak point as it was the plain slab.

I did have plastic sheeting (moisture barrier) under the old slab, also under the new one, however the concrete floor is still a cold place in the winter

[blackalex1952]

I have seen concretors use polystyrene foam to fill out slabs. I also know someone who has an electric solar powered heating arrangement under his slab, which raises the floor temp enough for the natural heating in the building to work much more efficiently. I know it's all probably above your budget level, but dreams can manifest!

[demonx]

Slab was poured nearly three weeks ago so there's no changing it now, you can just see it in the background of the tractor pic I posted two weeks ago.

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