Another wood ID?

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Craig Bumgarner
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Another wood ID?

Post by Craig Bumgarner » Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:19 am

Anyone know what in the world this might be? The guitar is 70 years old, built in Paris. The rumor is it came from an Island in the Pacific Northeast, ala British Columbia (US East Coasters call this the Pacific Northwest) The finish on the back and sides are probably newer, no stain apparent. The back and sides are laminated as is typical of this style guitar, what you see is a veneer and probably some of the crazy pattern is the way the veneer is cut. Would love to find some of this for a replica. The guitar btw is a 1940s Busato.

attachment=0]IMG_5296.JPG[/attachment]
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IMG_5296.JPG
Last edited by Craig Bumgarner on Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Craig Bumgarner
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Re: Another wood ID?

Post by Craig Bumgarner » Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:21 am

Another pic (yeah the side is cracked all the way across at the waist, crudely repaired, but solid)
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Craig Bumgarner
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Re: Another wood ID?

Post by Craig Bumgarner » Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:22 am

Another:
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curly
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Re: Another wood ID?

Post by curly » Wed Aug 19, 2015 6:09 pm

I couldn't say species but what I'm seeing is a man made veneer . The process by which it is made is pressing a stack of variously coloured veneers into a corrugated form and then rift slicing the flitch . A similar effect can be gotten by flat sawing timbers with a pronounced growth ring when the log has a rippled surface but the effect is more irregular .
Pete

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kiwigeo
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Re: Another wood ID?

Post by kiwigeo » Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:14 pm

Looking at that back is making me dizzy :shock:
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Craig Bumgarner
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Re: Another wood ID?

Post by Craig Bumgarner » Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:00 pm

kiwigeo wrote:Looking at that back is making me dizzy :shock:
Yeah, it is mesmerizing. If you look at it for a bit it takes on a 3D quality.

Curly, I can see why you say it looks man-made, but taking a close look at it now, I don't think so, no evidence at all of glue lines which are readily seen in even modern composite veneers.

I've had three guesses elsewhere: 1) Olive 2) Quilted Cypress and 3) a wood that only grows on an island off the coast of British Columbia, but the name has been lost. I'm skeptical about the first two and have way too little information to judge the third one. I'd love to get some of this and this step is identifying it.
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blackalex1952
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Re: Another wood ID?

Post by blackalex1952 » Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:41 pm

Have you tried looking at it through a microscope? Good information on end grain in the book "Understanding Wood"- Bruce Hoadley.
Also:http://www.wood-database.com/wood-artic ... ion-guide/
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Re: Another wood ID?

Post by blackalex1952 » Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:48 pm

Any chance of posting some pictures of the bracing inside?
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blackalex1952
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Re: Another wood ID?

Post by blackalex1952 » Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:50 pm

And perhaps some deflection, resonances and specific mobility?
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Craig Bumgarner
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Re: Another wood ID?

Post by Craig Bumgarner » Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:25 am

Bracing is standard Busato, similar to late Selmer, five ladder braces. The back is molded into a violin back shape, no braces. Top deflection is 0.10 - 0.11mm under 1Kg load on the bridge area, fairly stiff as these guitars generally go. It has a nice voice, balanced, cuts well in spite of it not being very loud (as one might guess from the deflection).
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curly
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Re: Another wood ID?

Post by curly » Thu Aug 20, 2015 8:03 pm

If you look at the timber in the back with a mind as to what would need to be going on in the tree it's pretty well impossible that it is not constructed .
Across the entire width of the back the pattern is consistently rift . At no point does it roll either to quarter or flat sawn . It's a single piece , not book matched . There is no evidence of sap , heart faults or roll from flat to quarter which is inevitable on a wide board . The tree would have to have been enormous ! When sawing out such a wide cant it's very unusual for the figure to not vary within the stem . Usually figure gets stronger to the outside of the tree . Trees trend toward stronger figure with age .
The sides on the other hand look more possibly natural as the figure is flat sawn with a crown wash figure often seen in conifers and ring porous hardwoods like the fraxinus genus ashes . I milled a satin box ( Phebalium squameum ) a year or so back with a very similar figure to the sides . It was a radical looking log , it had even concentric bands ever two inches or so .
Suggesting the veneer is constructed is not to put the instrument down . The effect is spectacular .
Pete

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Re: Another wood ID?

Post by blackalex1952 » Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:43 pm

Thanks Craig, much obliged...Roscoe
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Re: Another wood ID?

Post by blackalex1952 » Fri Aug 21, 2015 8:25 pm

I have always wanted to examine and play a Busato...apparently they vary considerably. I have also read that some had back bracing, and that the neck to body join had no dovetail, mortice or dowels...only held by casein glue, and I have never heard of a Busato neck to body join glue failure! I am interested in how Busato formed his "Bombe" in the soundboard...I have my theories and speculations although I have never seen one, my research is mainly internet based...I read that his soundboards were made from multiple pieces of spruce. My theory is that each piece is bent, the centre one more than the side pieces, then they are shot and joined thus forming both a pliage, not so sharp a curve, and a cross ways domed effect=thus the "bombe". Interested in your ideas?
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Re: Another wood ID?

Post by blackalex1952 » Fri Aug 21, 2015 8:45 pm

Some Busato shots from the internet.
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blackalex1952
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Re: Another wood ID?

Post by blackalex1952 » Fri Aug 21, 2015 9:20 pm

1940's Busato Modele #44:
Neck:Mahogany with ebony spline
Fingerboard Rosewood
Nut width 1 3/4”
Scale length 670mm,
Body:depth 3 7/8”
Top spruce,
Body size 16 ¼,
Weight 4.05 lb.


Late 1940's Busato Modele Moyen
Neck: Mahogany, spline is red coloured wood?
Fingerboard: Ebony 12” radius
Nut width: 1 11/16
Scale length: 675mm
Body depth: 3 ½”
Top:Spruce
Body Size: 15 3/4”
Weight: 4.1 lbs


1958 Grande Modele Busato
Neck: Mahogany, no spline, aluminium neck reinforcement
Fingerboard: ebony 12” radius
Nut width: 44mm
Scale length: 670mm
Body depth: 90mm
Back and sides: Rosewood (veneer?)
Top: spruce
Body width: 410mm
Weight: 4.1 lb
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blackalex1952
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Re: Another wood ID?

Post by blackalex1952 » Fri Aug 21, 2015 10:40 pm

Last edited by blackalex1952 on Fri Aug 21, 2015 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Craig Bumgarner
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Re: Another wood ID?

Post by Craig Bumgarner » Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:39 pm

Your second Youtube link is the same as the first. That's my buddy Michael Joseph Harris playing at Jacques Mazzoleni's house (gypsyguitars.com). Michael leads the Hot Club of Baltimore and Ultrafaux, both gypsy jazz groups and plays my model Zazou.

Yeah, Busato's are cool. And as you say, quite a lot of variation, hard to make generalizations. Good to see the pictures. I took the 4th on down, on the green blanket, while studying that guitar. And thanks for the model specs, the Busato I have here has a 12" radius fingerboard which is unusual among gypsy guitars. They are usually 20" or flat. Interesting to see 12" on others. I'm replacing the fingerboard which is not original and wondered if the 12" was a rock-n-roller's vision of what a good neck should be. Looks like it might have been Bartolo's idea from the start.
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blackalex1952
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Re: Another wood ID?

Post by blackalex1952 » Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:19 am

That second link wouldn't delete...maybe my antique computer...I hope those guys don't mind me posting their photos and links. You are spoilt having access to all those high end GJ guitars, my friend! By the way, I love your work and have watched your evolution as a maker, through this forum, on your website etc....also we are actually farce book friends!.....I invited you to join the Australian Jazz Manouche Musicians and Fans page. I know that we Aussies would welcome you at the yearly Ozmanouche bash in Brisbane!
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Re: Another wood ID?

Post by kiwigeo » Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:33 am

blackalex1952 wrote:That second link wouldn't delete...maybe my antique computer...
Second duplicate post deleted.
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Re: Another wood ID?

Post by Eric Reid » Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:49 pm

Curly has it right. There is no chance that that is a natural figure. Man-made with veneers, and nicely done.

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Re: Another wood ID?

Post by Philstix » Tue Aug 25, 2015 3:03 pm

Those of us who live here also call it the Pacific Northwest. I have seen similar figure in fir, though not quite on this scale but a tree cut at about that time could very well be enormous. By enormous I mean up to 15 feet in diameter or even more and If it came from an island near Vancouver B.C. in the forties or fifties that would not be all that unusual. I am not saying that it isn't a manmade veneer. But it is quite possible it is a real product.
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Re: Another wood ID?

Post by curly » Wed Aug 26, 2015 10:40 am

If it were natural then Fir ( pseudotsuga menseisii ) would produce the right proportion of early / late wood bands that the instrument shows . And they certainly do get big .
It's the consistently rift sawn thing that's got me . Sawmillers , speciality or otherwise don't rift saw by preference . A veneer flitch that could produce that degree of figure would be recognised as precious . It would be an even stronger figure flat or crown cut as the sides are . Why wouln't they ?
It's hard to put the visual into words . I'll try . For a natural tree to cut that figure you have a stem with very regular bands or raised ridges horizontally . Fiddleback is produced by corrugations in the fibre in the radial plane . The sample would have to be in the tangential plane . Horizontal corrugations can show up in buttress curl reaction wood though I've never seen anything nearly so regular .
Pete

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Re: Another wood ID?

Post by Philstix » Thu Aug 27, 2015 2:57 am

I agree it would be an unusual veneer but not impossible. The two pictures I included are of a couple of trees between 8 and 10 feet in diameter. Take one half again as big, give it some ground swell and think about how they would handle it. Early loggers would notch in a couple of toe boards and saw it above the groundswell because they had no way to deal with groundswell at the mill. Now imagine a more recent logger. He has no time for cutting in toe boards. When it gets to the mill they slough off the groundswell. Take that piece and slice through it for veneer following the angle. Possible? I have seen smaller examples which would show similar figure. On a 15 foot diameter tree? Who knows.
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Re: Another wood ID?

Post by mqbernardo » Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:56 am

Hi Craig, how´s it going? i´ve been intrigued by that same guitar... indeed the figure seems to good to be true. Could it beTamo ash?


all the best,
Miguel.

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