Bending wood alternatives...

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viento
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Bending wood alternatives...

Post by viento » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:41 pm

I´m looking for an alternative if my bending binding/purfling/linings with
snakewood doesn´t work like I want it. (splintering... etc)
I found two other quite interesting woods :
Tasmanian blackwood and Koa.

Which of them would be better to bend?.
I use a bending iron with a heating fan.
Thanks!

Hardy

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J.F. Custom
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Re: Bending wood alternatives...

Post by J.F. Custom » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:52 pm

Hi Viento.

I'm going to assume you mean bindings, not linings, as that's a fairly exorbitant use of snakewood if not!! :shock:

But with respect to Blackwood or Koa, they are so similar in characteristics (genetically also very closely related) that I doubt you will notice a difference in bending, between the two. The only comments would be that clearly, figured material is more difficult to bend than plain. Less water than more usually works better for figured Blackwood. Use of a backing strap or material of some form is recommended, whatever you are trying to bend, to assist against splitting.

But in any case, with practice, they should not present any problems.

Hope that helps.

Jeremy.

viento
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Re: Bending wood alternatives...

Post by viento » Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:21 am

Hi Jeremy,
thanks for your informations!
Of course I mean bindings... :wink:
I have had a tough afternoon today bending the snakewood strips .
I could not avoid two more or less decent splints
in the narrower curves of the waist.
I will try to close those gaps while gluing them into the routed channels and
I hope that Titebond will do what its name says. Winding tapes and rubber strips firmly
around the guitar should help, I guess.

Btw, Koa and its kind of sibling Tasmanian blackwood would be prone to split easily, too...?
Thanks!

Hardy

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kiwigeo
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Re: Bending wood alternatives...

Post by kiwigeo » Sat Jul 25, 2015 10:31 am

Tassie Blackwood bindings aren't too painful to bend. I do mine by hand on an iron. If the bend is a tight radius then make sure the binding is supported with a metal slat. Try using super soft or fabric softener to make bending easier.

The only issue I sometimes have with TBW is a bit of discolouration but a wash with oxalic acid or similar usually gets rid of the staining.

Attached is a current build..a parlour with TBW bindings.
IMG_1022.jpg
IMG_1039.jpg
Martin

viento
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Re: Bending wood alternatives...

Post by viento » Sat Jul 25, 2015 8:13 pm

Martin, thank you for your detailed infos, especially for the 2 photos!
Blackwood here in Germany is very scarce and ordering it from Australia is a bit complicated
because of the distance and shipping time.
So I just now have ordered a set of koa binding at a wood shop here.
I hope bending that will be a tad easier than snakewood.
I have only made one guitar until now (last year) which had maple bindings, a pleasure to bend.

Btw, do you use a router for adding a light curve on the top edge of the bindings -or is sanding sufficient?

Thanks + have a nice weekend!

Hardy
Thanks!

Hardy

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kiwigeo
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Re: Bending wood alternatives...

Post by kiwigeo » Sat Jul 25, 2015 8:18 pm

viento wrote:
Btw, do you use a router for adding a light curve on the top edge of the bindings -or is sanding sufficient?

Thanks + have a nice weekend!

Hardy
Hardy,

To put a slight bevel on the outside edge of the binding I use a cabinet scraper....only a few passes are required. If you decide to sand the bevel in then make sure you use a hard sanding block behind the paper.
Martin

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56nortondomy
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Re: Bending wood alternatives...

Post by 56nortondomy » Sat Jul 25, 2015 9:27 pm

Here's some Koa binding, it looks very similar to Tas. b/wood. It can still be tricky on tight bends, I wrecked a couple of pieces before I got it right, both on the cutaway. I ended up soaking them in fabric softener. Wayne
Attachments
IMGP3323_1200x798.JPG
IMGP3322_1200x798.JPG

viento
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Re: Bending wood alternatives...

Post by viento » Sat Jul 25, 2015 10:01 pm

Wayne, thanks for adding these photos + description!

Just a dummy´s question: What is "fabric softener" ?

Is that the stuff used in laundries or at home in washing machines?
Thanks!

Hardy

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kiwigeo
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Re: Bending wood alternatives...

Post by kiwigeo » Sat Jul 25, 2015 10:11 pm

viento wrote:Wayne, thanks for adding these photos + description!

Just a dummy´s question: What is "fabric softener" ?

Is that the stuff used in laundries or at home in washing machines?
All explained here: http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/flattening.htm
Martin

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Re: Bending wood alternatives...

Post by charangohabsburg » Sat Jul 25, 2015 10:36 pm

viento wrote:Just a dummy´s question: What is "fabric softener" ?

Is that the stuff used in laundries or at home in washing machines?
Genau. Weichspüler. Funktioniert prima!
Soak the wood in undiluted fabric softener or brush it on repeatedly over 30 or 40 minutes, let dry for at least an hour but preferably not more than half a day, then bend with the bender of your choice. If you try to bend figured wood when wet the risk of fibre separation is bigger. Good luck!
Markus

To be stupid is like to be dead. Oneself will not be aware of it.
It's only the others who suffer.

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kiwigeo
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Re: Bending wood alternatives...

Post by kiwigeo » Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:11 pm

charangohabsburg wrote: Genau. Weichspüler. Funktioniert prima!
Translation: "Excuse me your donkey has just eaten my passport"
Martin

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charangohabsburg
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Re: Bending wood alternatives...

Post by charangohabsburg » Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:23 pm

kiwigeo wrote:
charangohabsburg wrote: Genau. Weichspüler. Funktioniert prima!
Translation: "Excuse me your donkey has just eaten my passport"
Exactly. How did you know? :shock:
Markus

To be stupid is like to be dead. Oneself will not be aware of it.
It's only the others who suffer.

viento
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Re: Bending wood alternatives...

Post by viento » Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:06 pm

I gave up with the snakewood. I bent it but in the waist were some splints coming out.
I will use it another time.
I have received a set of nicely figured muninga bindings yesterday and still am fighting those nasty little splits mainly in the waist curves.
I will pursue my bending tomorrow but if this wood continues being disobedient too I will store it on the shelf and use straight lined maple... :git
Thanks!

Hardy

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56nortondomy
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Re: Bending wood alternatives...

Post by 56nortondomy » Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:14 pm

Hardy,try stabalising the splits with ca and just keep bending, that's what I do, dosen't always work, but most of the time they come out ok, just go easy.
Wayne

viento
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Re: Bending wood alternatives...

Post by viento » Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:33 pm

Wayne, thank you, I´ll give it a try :P
Thanks!

Hardy

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Trevor Gore
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Re: Bending wood alternatives...

Post by Trevor Gore » Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:33 pm

Sounds like you need more heat. Snakewood bends similar to bloodwood which bends similar to glass. You need to get it hot just short of scorching and then it goes plastic; then the curve sets like glass. Too many cycles and it gets really hard to bend.
Snake neo back.jpg
Snake neo back.jpg (65.7 KiB) Viewed 23221 times
Blackwood doesn't need as much heat, but only dampen the insides of the curves on the figured stuff and watch for it kinking where the grain is really short through the piece. No softeners were required to bend these:
DSCF3361s.jpg
DSCF3361s.jpg (116.2 KiB) Viewed 23221 times
If you want a real challenge, try bending this stuff for bindings (if you can figure out what it is!)
DSCF6472s.jpg
DSCF6472s.jpg (105.88 KiB) Viewed 23218 times
Here's a closer look:
Attachments
DSCF6473s.jpg
DSCF6473s.jpg (125.4 KiB) Viewed 23218 times

viento
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Re: Bending wood alternatives...

Post by viento » Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:31 am

Trevor, thanks for your detailed instructions.
I will try to get a tad more temperature with a gas torch blowing
into the steel tube of the bending iron.
Btw, is the last binding dark snakewood?

Wayne, I tried to bend nicely figured muninga binding this afternoon.
I started with the "U"-shaped florentine cutaway pieces and almost
went mad because they splinted several times on those short pieces.
Superglue helped a lot and I glued in one piece with Titebond just to
see if it´s worth continuing with the other stripes tomorrow.

I´ll tell you...
Thanks!

Hardy

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J.F. Custom
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Re: Bending wood alternatives...

Post by J.F. Custom » Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:58 am

Trevor Gore wrote: If you want a real challenge, try bending this stuff for bindings (if you can figure out what it is!)
Gidgee!! 8)

Jeremy

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56nortondomy
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Re: Bending wood alternatives...

Post by 56nortondomy » Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:18 pm

Stick with it Hardy you'll get there.
Wayne

viento
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Re: Bending wood alternatives...

Post by viento » Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:11 pm

Yeah, I´ve got it
- at least the two first ones. Even the short binding in the cutaway isn´t too bad.
There´s the last tree bindings awaiting for their hot treatments.
One is still taking it´s bath in a mixture of fabric softener and water since yesterday evening.
I have got a spare one if it doesn´t work.

You can take look at them if you want:
Image

here a touch of naphta brings more of the pattern and the yellowish/brown colors of the muninga wood
Image
I still have to sand and then do the pore filling...
Thanks!

Hardy

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56nortondomy
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Re: Bending wood alternatives...

Post by 56nortondomy » Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:38 pm

Well done Hardy, looking good, a bit of persistence works wonders.
Wayne

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Trevor Gore
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Re: Bending wood alternatives...

Post by Trevor Gore » Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:48 pm

viento wrote: You can take look at them if you want:...
Looking good!
J.F. Custom wrote:
Trevor Gore wrote: If you want a real challenge, try bending this stuff for bindings (if you can figure out what it is!)
Gidgee!!

Jeremy
How did you know that? 8)

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kiwigeo
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Re: Bending wood alternatives...

Post by kiwigeo » Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:36 pm

Nice work Viento......beer was invented for tough jobs like this! :gui
Martin

viento
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Re: Bending wood alternatives...

Post by viento » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:44 am

Thank you all for your help and your sympathy!
Thanks!

Hardy

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peter.coombe
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Re: Bending wood alternatives...

Post by peter.coombe » Sat Aug 08, 2015 5:58 pm

Well I reckon most Ebony is harder to bend than Gidgee, although the figured variety of Gidgee would be tricky.
Peter Coombe - mandolin, mandola and guitar maker
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