Hand-wound strings with a round core

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dshaker
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Hand-wound strings with a round core

Post by dshaker » Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:15 am

I just listened to a podcast from Fretboard Journal about a string-maker in Los Angeles that hand-winds his strings on a round core. The podcast is here:
http://www.fretboardjournal.com/podcast ... om-strings
The actual string-maker's website is here:
http://thegcs.co/

From the podcast, the string-maker seems to feel that using a round core, rather than a hexagonal core, for the wound strings has an inherent advantage. He says that when the outer wire is wrapped around a hexagonal core, the outer wire and the hexagonal core bite into each other. This makes the string much easier to handle as the outer wire is much less likely to unravel, but he says is also makes the string much less lively, acoustically.

I am trying to think of why that might be so and how much credence I should give that claim. I suppose that, if the outer wire and the core bite into each other with a hexagonal core, the string would be stiffer and therefore behave less like an "ideal string" (in the physics sense of "ideal string", not a musical sense). And that might lead to more harmonious overtones.

Any other ideas? Thoughts? Experience?
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Nick
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Re: Hand-wound strings with a round core

Post by Nick » Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:03 am

dshaker wrote: He says that when the outer wire is wrapped around a hexagonal core, the outer wire and the hexagonal core bite into each other. This makes the string much easier to handle as the outer wire is much less likely to unravel, but he says is also makes the string much less lively, acoustically.

It may be a case of shaping the argument to suit his methods in order to sell strings (you've read many arguments for why a luthier does things a weird and wonderful way on the internet!) or he may have a legitimate argument, it's hard to say yay or nay without empirical evidence, but they used to make strings with round cores and went away from those for a reason (It may have been for commercial purposes or it may be because of the reason the maker stated, the windings unraveled). But sound-wise I'm not sure acoustically that hex is worse than round core, I guess Hex would have a miniscule difference in mass than a round core but whether you'd be able to hear the difference, the jury is out.
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Re: Hand-wound strings with a round core

Post by jeffhigh » Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:31 am

It used to be a common recommendation in the round core days, to always bend the string at 90 degrees before cutting to length to avoid unravelling.

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Re: Hand-wound strings with a round core

Post by scripsit » Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:56 am

jeffhigh wrote:It used to be a common recommendation in the round core days, to always bend the string at 90 degrees before cutting to length to avoid unravelling.
I found that round core strings like Newtones don't like cutting at all, whether you bend the end or not. This makes it a nightmare for my stringing method. Even worse with slotheads.

I've not noticed any tone difference, and in fact Newtones sound a bit dull to me straight out of the packet.

The one advantage some round core strings have is that it appears that the tension can be adjusted a bit easier, by altering the diameter of the core wire. So, you can lower G and D string tension in particular.

Kym

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Trevor Gore
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Re: Hand-wound strings with a round core

Post by Trevor Gore » Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:23 am

dshaker wrote:I just listened to a podcast from Fretboard Journal about a string-maker in Los Angeles that hand-winds his strings on a round core. The podcast is here:
http://www.fretboardjournal.com/podcast ... om-strings
The actual string-maker's website is here:
http://thegcs.co/

From the podcast, the string-maker seems to feel that using a round core, rather than a hexagonal core, for the wound strings has an inherent advantage. He says that when the outer wire is wrapped around a hexagonal core, the outer wire and the hexagonal core bite into each other. This makes the string much easier to handle as the outer wire is much less likely to unravel, but he says is also makes the string much less lively, acoustically.

I am trying to think of why that might be so and how much credence I should give that claim. I suppose that, if the outer wire and the core bite into each other with a hexagonal core, the string would be stiffer and therefore behave less like an "ideal string" (in the physics sense of "ideal string", not a musical sense). And that might lead to more harmonious overtones.

Any other ideas? Thoughts? Experience?
What you say, Doug, seems to be the accepted wisdom. Some makers, such as DR, do both round (Sunbeams) and hex core (Rare). So it should be fairly easy to compare the sounds. I've tried the Rare, and they seem pretty bright, so if the Sunbeams are brighter, they may be a bit harsh.

Here's what DR says on round vs. hex: http://www.drstrings.com/#!faq/c20r9 (see FAQ #8)

Yet, they claim their Hi-Beams are wound on hex (an 80/20 string) and are designed for extra brightness! http://www.drstrings.com/#!acoustic/c942

"Bright" means different things to different people, but usually the same thing to the same people!

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Re: Hand-wound strings with a round core

Post by blackalex1952 » Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:43 am

I play several musical styles, ranging from Gypsy Jazz to American songbook, to modern jazz,blues,reggae,reggae jazz, rock and world music on my Selmer clone, archtops,Fender strat and Gibson 335. I also play upright bass and electric bass, both fretless and fretted. So I use a range of different string types. At one stage I bought some Guadeloupe "Manouche Tone Verte" strings for the GJ guitars. I have used Argentines, which are the traditional brand, also D'Addario GJ strings,but I prefer, for my guitar GJ guitar, Galli Gypsy Jazz strings. I suspect that the Guadeloupes must have a thicker core, as they are stiffer and brighter than the Argies and the Gallis. The Gallis seem to last longest and are not so bright, which mellows the tone of this particular guitar. Selmeroids are pretty toppy and middy unless they are high end, and that way by nature anyway.The winding on the G string which is usually the first to go on GJ guitars, went much sooner than the other brands. The Gallis are also lower playing tension. I have yet to get around to measuring all these factors. The D'Addario website has a string tension calculator..I have attached some screenshots I did a while ago, of the string tensions one would expect with the relevant guages entered in to the calculator. Bear in mid that these hypothetical figures would be for strings made by D'Addario and do not take into account the factors like the type of metal,core diameter and round or hex winding methods particular to the other manufacturers.
Incidentally, I am wondering now about the effect of the different winding alloy and winding wire thickness as well.I assume that the variables for both string core and winding would be-metal alloy type, core format ie round, hex, (sex anyone?) diameter and wind tension. The GJ strings use a silver plated copper alloy winding. The early Argentine strings that were available in Django"s era have evolved to a slightly improved alloy. But GJ strings are notorious for breaking anyway, in part due to their light build qualities and to the use of heavy plectrums and powerful downstroke and swept picking for volume and tone.
As to my other guitars, I use Thomastic flat wound Jazz on my archtops and havel also taken to using them on my 335, which makes for a particularly fatter sound. Still great for blues and jazz, also particularly good for reggae. The early reggae Studio One guitarists in Jamaica used flat wounds on whatever electric guitar they had to get the strong rhythm tone foung in the reggae "chank".For my Strat I use Rotosound, which for me, eat the D'Addarios and most others for breakfast' They have a thicker core, which makes them more magnetic and louder, and are stiffer for the same string guages. Thus a truss rod adjustment needed when I first tried them. They seem to have a richer tone as well.I also use the acoustic Rotosound strings on my flat top guitars.As for 'Brightness", well when that occurs, I put on a pair of cool Raybans...
Attachments
Maouche tone 11's.JPG
Galli light.JPG
EJ16.JPG
EJ15.JPG
Dabadiro galli light.JPG
argentine lights.JPG
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Nick
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Re: Hand-wound strings with a round core

Post by Nick » Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:16 pm

Interesting to hear your comments on the flatwounds and reggae Alex (I presume that's your name?). I never would have picked flatwounds for that genre! They always sound boomy and muddy to me, excellent for jazz as you say, but I would have thought not for reggae where you want that cutting percussive stab. I shall have to try some at some stage!
Interesting topic this is turning into!
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Re: Hand-wound strings with a round core

Post by blackalex1952 » Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:04 pm

Nick, my name is Ross (or Roscoe)...The flatwounds would only be "boomy" on certain guitars...such a qualitative word anyway. But I find that for reggae they have a power and clarity that epitomises the old school reggae rhythm sound.
https://youtu.be/8f73TICkFKE
In the video Tuff Lion talks about flat wound strings, but I have seen elsewhere the old school Jamaican rhythm player's preference for the tone of flat wound strings. If your are interested in reggae guitar playing I recommend Ernest Ranglin who was there from the very beginning of the style.
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Nick
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Re: Hand-wound strings with a round core

Post by Nick » Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:30 am

blackalex1952 wrote:Nick, my name is Ross (or Roscoe)...The flatwounds would only be "boomy" on certain guitars...such a qualitative word anyway. But I find that for reggae they have a power and clarity that epitomises the old school reggae rhythm sound.
https://youtu.be/8f73TICkFKE
In the video Tuff Lion talks about flat wound strings, but I have seen elsewhere the old school Jamaican rhythm player's preference for the tone of flat wound strings. If your are interested in reggae guitar playing I recommend Ernest Ranglin who was there from the very beginning of the style.
Thanks Ross :D Yeah sound description is a very subjective subject, when I described them as boomy it's probably not the usual thing people think of as being loud and big sound but more bassy and full (less cut/trebles). when I think of flatwounds, I'm going back 20-30 years! and they seemed like quite a heavy string compared to roundwounds hence probably why they lacked any cut. With modern technology the ribbon/flat winding is probably much lighter now, I must try some, seems to work nicely for Tuff Lion.
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Re: Hand-wound strings with a round core

Post by kiwigeo » Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:04 pm

Aren't piano strings flat wound? Bass players like Greg Lake had a piano string like sound (check out Brain Salad Surgery)....I heard a rumour once that Lake actually tried running piano strings on his Fender P bass.
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Re: Hand-wound strings with a round core

Post by Nick » Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:21 pm

kiwigeo wrote:Aren't piano strings flat wound? Bass players like Greg Lake had a piano string like sound (check out Brain Salad Surgery)....I heard a rumour once that Lake actually tried running piano strings on his Fender P bass.
Never heard of piano strings being flat wound, most piano hammers I've seen have the indentation of a round wound string on their faces, that's not to say they aren't, just what I've seen, which is probably jack s**t compared to others here :wink: :lol:
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Re: Hand-wound strings with a round core

Post by blackalex1952 » Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:33 am

A comment I want to make regarding the difference between flat wounds and round wounds on archtop guitars. Using my own qualitative terms: roundwound strings, to my ear, have more sustain in the high frequency range and more of a "reverb" with less "weight" in the bass. Also they have more "give" to the pick. Flat wounds have a a much drier sound, more low mid focus in the highs and tend to work the archtop guitar more.They project with a drier sound which is great for old school rhythm work (think Freddie Green big band rhythm playing). They have much more "weight" in the bass. They are also an excellent sound for modern playing when coupled with a magnetic pickup and amp with just a touch of reverb (think George Benson, Wes Montgomery, Kenny Burrell). The difference between the Freddie Green rhythm sound and the modern style is in the use of the plectrum. The old style is played largely acoustically with either no amp or the amp volume very low, no reverb and sriking the strings with a robust plectrum stroke. The modern sound is with the amp up and delicate picking. Well, that's how I do it. I also get a lot of my personal sound from a very heavy pick and Gypsy Jazz style picking for the old school stuff and a combination of that style with a light touch and what is called circular picking for the amplified modern sound.
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Re: Hand-wound strings with a round core

Post by blackalex1952 » Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:36 pm

The other quality I think flatwounds on an archtop have is that they are more percussive with a low end "thump" a la Freddie Green style...archtops with roundwounds are very different, although just as valid for the styles they suit. I have recorded with the same guitar or type of guitar with roundwounds for one track and flats for another...I have even mixed flatwounds with a roundwound 6th string to get a little more sustain and brightness on the 6th string notes.
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