Life time of repairs

simso · Post by **simso** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:12 pm

Thought this would be a good conversation starter.

Got a guitar in for repair, its in a pretty bad way, clearly its been to a few people over the years.

We popped the back of to repair it and thought this would be an interesting photo for others.

You can see there have been numerous repairs to try and keep it going.

The downside is the top is only 2mm thick, so its been sanded and painted a few times as well I am guessing.

Steve

simso · Post by **simso** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:44 pm

The things we do to keep guitars going.

I am guessing 1950ish to 2015, so thats 65 yrs of life and repairs

How many repairs / alterations can you see... ?? I counted 21

Steve

kiwigeo · Post by **kiwigeo** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:57 pm

The owner of that guitar must have had a lot of unhappy girlfriends

Kamusur · Post by **Kamusur** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:11 pm

When i was reading your the post Steve i thought you were going to say an interesting repair for someone else not photo.
Gotta love the patina and it looks like tar was the glue of choice.

Steve

simso · Post by **simso** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:35 pm

Nah, cannot comment on other peoples repairs, because you do not know what it was before it went to them, plus people are doing repairs through a sound hole.

I find it interesting when we open something up, you learn a lot and get to see a lot, me and my work partner usually discuss what we see and surmise how they did that repair and for what reason was it done.

Some things are mind blowing others are ?? why.

This one has had a lot of work to keep it going over the years

Hopefully we can give it some new love and a new lease on life. The biggest issue for us on this one is the top is so thin from over sanding during I am guessing a few resprays during the last 60 years.

Steve

simso · Post by **simso** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:37 pm

kiwigeo wrote:The owner of that guitar must have had a lot of unhappy girlfriends

Bwahaha, we have seen a few of those, girlfriend finds out partner is doing extra activities, usually equates to guitar out the window or foot through the top.

Sometimes the stories that come with the guitar are so good, they make your day

Steve

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:16 am

What do you think the wide flat cleats between the lower tone bars are for? Does it look like cracks or was it in an attempt to control some of the bellying since the top has been thinned so much?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:14 am

Allen wrote:What do you think the wide flat cleats between the lower tone bars are for? Does it look like cracks or was it in an attempt to control some of the bellying since the top has been thinned so much?

Made me remember a small story in Kent Everett's voicing DVD set where he said that a student brought a guitar to him where the student had used small diamond cleats between the tone bars to re-enforce the soundboard joint. Main complaint was the guitar sounded "constricted", Kent said that the cleats were about 3mm thick so he shaved them down to about 1-1.5mm and the top opened up. Would hate to think what those large cleats (if you could call them that!) do to the sound

! Mind you, I'm wondering what sort of sound it had with all that extra spruce in there both as patches and extra tone bars.
How do you intend 'fixing' this one Steve? I'd be almost tempted to re-top it (budget dependent of course), start from scratch. Would solve the problem of the thin top too, although having said that, Maccaferri's only use a top that's around 2mm and ladder braced.

simso · Post by **simso** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:02 am

Allen wrote:What do you think the wide flat cleats between the lower tone bars are for? Does it look like cracks or was it in an attempt to control some of the bellying since the top has been thinned so much?

I think it was to try and stop some form of bellying happening, there are a couple of cracks in the top, but those pieces are too large for cracks IMO.

Steve

simso · Post by **simso** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:05 am

Nick wrote:
Allen wrote:How do you intend 'fixing' this one Steve? I'd be almost tempted to re-top it (budget dependent of course), start from scratch. Would solve the problem of the thin top too, although having said that, Maccaferri's only use a top that's around 2mm and ladder braced.

The problem is customer wants the top to be original, dont blame him, after we remove everything we will have a better idea, I am almost thinking of a second skin internally to take it up a mm, but unsure yet, need to see what is left after its cleaned out.

Steve

kiwigeo · Post by **kiwigeo** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:58 am

simso wrote:
Nick wrote:
Allen wrote:How do you intend 'fixing' this one Steve? I'd be almost tempted to re-top it (budget dependent of course), start from scratch. Would solve the problem of the thin top too, although having said that, Maccaferri's only use a top that's around 2mm and ladder braced.
The problem is customer wants the top to be original, dont blame him, after we remove everything we will have a better idea, I am almost thinking of a second skin internally to take it up a mm, but unsure yet, need to see what i8s left after its cleaned out.

Steve

Double skin top?

DarwinStrings · Post by **DarwinStrings** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:16 am

I have a Gibson in at the moment in similar condition, the top is full of cracks that are not so repaired but it has extensive repairs to the sides (may have been used as a weapon). So I will be taking the back off (in about four pieces) and also need to get quite a belly out. Nice work really.

simso · Post by **simso** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:56 pm

Be a bit of bugger fixing this one, some areas of the top are 1.2mm thick and after removing all the fill pieces we have found a nice sized hole

Nick · Post by **Nick** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 4:08 pm

Hmmmm, maybe treat it for outside use, put a hinge on the back plate and give it back to the customer to use as a mailbox?

Was wondering what the little 'wings' were on the end of bridge plate ends on the otherside of the X brace, now I can see they were covering up the hole! Geez, tough fix!

simso · Post by **simso** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:32 pm

Yes it will be an interesting repair this one, we micrometered the top today, some areas are down to 1.2mm, so pretty thin.

It wont become a wall hanging, it will continue life for many more years to come.

The customer is adamant he wants the top to stay original rather than be replaced.

Steve

Mat · Post by **Mat** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:50 pm

Nice! Nothing like pulling things apart to find other peoples interesting fixes.
Must keep us updated.

kiwigeo · Post by **kiwigeo** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:03 pm

simso wrote:Yes it will be an interesting repair this one, we micrometered the top today, some areas are down to 1.2mm, so pretty thin.

Turn it into a lute...

kiwigeo · Post by **kiwigeo** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:05 pm

Nick wrote:Hmmmm, maybe treat it for outside use, put a hinge on the back plate and give it back to the customer to use as a mailbox?

ROFL!!!

Classic Kiwi humour....

simso · Post by **simso** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:45 pm

Mat wrote:Nice! Nothing like pulling things apart to find other peoples interesting fixes.
Must keep us updated.

Yes I don't believe really in commenting on how someone else has done a repair, I do find some interesting to say the least. Hopefully we will make the owner happy with the end result.

J.F. Custom · Post by **J.F. Custom** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:28 pm

Crikey Steve... Some apprentice spent ages trying to fix that minor stuff up at the bridge before the boss could see - only for you to uncover it again! Mantra - "Must go lighter with the scalpel when tracing the bridge to scrape the lacquer..." He thought no-one would be any the wiser...

So what is that hole about anyway

Interesting repair task. If it's 1.2mm "in places", is this thinned on the outside as you suggest likely from over zealous sanding? If so, I presume the inner surface will be reasonably even/flat for adding another layer. So would you thin the entirety of the current top, or whats left of it, to an even 1.2, then add another layer; or are you going to add another layer, then scrape in places until you have the combined dimensions you want throughout the plate? The latter causing issues with re-bracing? What glue would you use for such a job?

Assume if the customer is adamant about the top staying "original", this includes the bracing style... Which rules out a lattice or falcate alternative. "Original" probably rules out nomex double top too. Hopefully he is not including all those cleats and repairs as 'original'!! Glue em back Steve!

But they clearly have some money to throw at the repair cause any which way is time consuming!

Good luck with it.

Jeremy.

kiwigeo · Post by **kiwigeo** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:32 pm

Thinking outside the square here.....how about flipping the top inside out??? All that "character" on the underside of the top should be on open display to the world....

simso · Post by **simso** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:17 pm

You never know what caused the need for removal of wood in that area, I could surmise that it maybe had torn away, or they had a different repair path than mine. Either way, my job yo now make it functional again.

My thought process is one of two paths, I can make a cross lamination up and this will add a lot of strength, but I do believe the sound will suffer, the other option is I can make a new spruce top shape it so it fits exactly inside the kerfing and then machine the 3mm spruce insert down to 1.8 except the area where the bridge section is missing, I'll leave this full thickness so it adds strength back into the bridge area.

Haven't decided yet, we got side tracked today fitting a bloody floyd rose to an ibanez that originally had a tailpiece and saddle, what a serious headache that was.

kiwigeo · Post by **kiwigeo** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:38 pm

Does the owner want to retain the look or the sound of the old top? If hes primarily concerned about the look of the top then do nothing and give the guitar back to him. If he wants a good sounding top that isn't going to fall apart on him then Id whack in a new top.

My opinion only and its not my guitar. I don't get emotionally attached to guitars like some people do. Once I've finished an instrument theyre like old girlfriends..I cant wait to get rid of them.

simso · Post by **simso** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:56 pm

Agreed, not too over fussed, it's just another one on the rack, just interesting the amount of repairs inside it.

Customer wants to retain the look of authenticity, and the top itself. I always want it to sound good as well.

Trevor Gore · Post by **Trevor Gore** » Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:24 pm

simso wrote:Customer wants to retain the look of authenticity, and the top itself....

It's a common affliction.

(Should have kept the pick guard(s), and shame about the bridge, too)

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