which epoxy glue for fingerboard?

[Craigsz]

Hi just wanting some advice as to which brand /type of epoxy to use for gluing the fingerboard . I have seen on other forums "West Systems".
Is this available here in OZ or is there a local equivalent? Also how does one stop the epoxy from messing with the truss rod? Thanks .

Craig.

[Bob Connor]

G'day Craig and welcome to the forum.

Because it's such a large glueing surface I think any epoxy would do.

I know Mario Proulx has this opinion, so based on the fact that he's usually pretty reliable I use Araldite and have had no problems with it.

I will add that once I've used up the current supply I am going to change to West Systems because you can use it as pore filler as well.

Carbatec sell it and I would imagine you would find it at marine supply shops. If you Google Australian websites for West Systems you'll find a few places that will sell it online.

I use the Allied Truss rods so I fit a 2mm fillet piece of wood into the truss rod slot and just glue the fingerboard over that.

Cheers

Bob

[graham mcdonald]

Hello Craig.

Good to see anotehr Canberran!

I have been using NHP 30 minute epoxy from the model plane shop that used to be in Queanbeyan, but seems to have disappeared. There has been discussion over on the Luthier Forum site about this, and several people suggest that a filler/thickener needs to be added to the epoxy, but I haven't had any problems just with straight epoxy. The other suggestion was not to put too much clamping pressure that would squeeze the glue out and starve the joint. I think any good quality woodworking epoxy will work, as long as it sets up hard. The NHP is simple to use with equal amounts of resin and hardener and seems a little forgiving as to the exact proportions.

Like Bob, I inset the truss rod a couple of mm below the surface of the neck and glue a capping strip clamped down firmly on the rod, so the rod is held firmly top and bottom. It makes the whole thing simpler than trying to get the rod slot exactly the right depth to seat the rod solidly between the bottom of the slot and the fingerboard. The capping trip is glued in over size and then planed/sanded down to the surface of the neck. Best not to glue the head veneer on before doing this

cheers

graham

[kiwigeo]

Welcome to the forum Craig,

If you do opt to leave your truss rod channel open then you can put a strip of masking tape over the channel to keep glue out and/or make sure you leave a glue free central strip on the underside of your fretboard.

If you can go for the Allied truss rods as described above...they are an absolute joy to work with.

Cheers Martin

[Craigsz]

Thanks everyone for your welcome and advice . This time I am stuck with the two way rod from LMI . It has a square section that sits flush with the fingerboard gluing surface. I don't really want to deepen the slot as the neck is at final size . I can now see the benefit of using a rod with a filler strip on top and will go this way next time. Thanks again.

Craig

[kiwigeo]

Craig,

If youre using the two way Allied rod then that in iteslf will cut down risk of getting glue on the working parts of the rod. Just take care around the ends of the rod where the threads are.

For a good set of instructions on installing these rod see Allied's website for a downloadable document.

[matthew]

several people suggest that a filler/thickener needs to be added to the epoxy, but I haven't had any problems just with straight epoxy. The other suggestion was not to put too much clamping pressure that would squeeze the glue out and starve the joint.

Of course if you were using hot hide glue, none of this would be a problem, and you'd have an invisible glue line to boot.

[kiwigeo]

Matthew,

One argument for using epoxy on a fretboard is you don't get moisture from the glue ingressing into the neck wood causing bowing of same.

Cheers Martin

[Bob Connor]

The problem with using HHG or Titebond on thin guitar necks is that they are water based Matthew.

And this induces back bow into the neck.

I had all sorts of problems with this on earlier guitars. Changing to epoxy fixed it.

Cheers

Bob

[matthew]

But ... it dries out, no?

What did Torres, Hauser, CF Martin, Selmer blah blab blah use? Did they have problems with back bow?

[kiwigeo]

But ... it dries out, no?

What did Torres, Hauser, CF Martin, Selmer blah blab blah use? Did they have problems with back bow?

With a water based glue enough water can pentrated into the wood enough to cause issues with back bow. I run AR glue along the tangs of my frets partly because the water in the glue will swell the fretboard enough to improve grip on the fret tang. I have personally never had issues with neck backbow but others have and swear by non-water based glues for fretboards.

[kiwigeo]

All discussed previously here. Note Rick's comments on carving necks with fretboard attached and water based glues.


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Cheers Martin

[Allen]

Welcome to the forum Craig. I've been using WEST Systems as it's good for so many things in guitar building. I haven't added thickener when glueing on the fret board, but you do need to be careful about how much clamping pressure you use. It's easy to crank it down too tight and squeeze glue out everywhere.

I got my WEST Systems at a local paint supplier. He sells automotive, house and boat paint, so I suppose this is why he carries it.

[Craigsz]

But ... it dries out, no?

What did Torres, Hauser, CF Martin, Selmer blah blab blah use? Did they have problems with back bow?

I had a lot of problems getting my first to play half decent so wanted to reduce as many potential problems as possible . I believe the experience of long time builders is worth taking note of. I guess everything returns to some sort of equilibrium over time but it caused me no end of frustration waiting for it.
Thanks Allen I will make some enquiries re the West Systems .

Regards

Craig.

[Kim]

But ... it dries out, no?

What did Torres, Hauser, CF Martin, Selmer blah blab blah use? Did they have problems with back bow?

Hello Craig, welcome to the forum

Yes Mathew it does dry out but not before first introducing a back-bow and then, once the glue goes off, the back-bow is permanently set into the neck.

I would imagine that blab blab blab and her mates may have carved a predetermined amount of relief into the neck so that the ying balanced the yang so to speak. I guess this could still easily be done however it's the first dozen or so instruments under your belt that reveals the correct predetermined bit that makes it worth using epoxy straight up.

I am sure, had epoxy been available to her, blab blab blab and Co would have used it as well. Besides, an epoxied board is just as easily removed with heat as one glued with anything else so no issue is good.

Cheers

Kim

[Dominic]

Craig, welcome. There is a place in Fyshwick that sells west systems and fibre glass rods for that matter for your go bar deck. Down the road that Allens is on near the pie shop on the corner. If you are worried about the threads put a bit of wax on them.
Apparently Monaro timbers had some really nice figured Q maple recently that I missed. Did you get any?
Dom

[matthew]

I am sure, had epoxy been available to her, blab blab blab and Co would have used it as well. Besides, an epoxied board is just as easily removed with heat as one glued with anything else so no issue is good.

Aw crap Kim. You just don't like the smell

[Hesh1956]

Welcome Craig.

What Kim said about the back bow being locked in by the glue going off.

Many, many builders have learned this the hard way, I am one of them, and although the back bow can usually be sanded out by leveling the fret board with a beam - who needs it?

It's been said that guitar building is a combination of the additive process of constructing a guitar combined the the restorative process of fixing what we screw up along the way...... Not inducing back bow into a neck frees you us to go mess up some other part of the guitar.

And I agree with Allen and think that West Systems is great stuff. I also don't thicken it for a fret board and as Allen said WS is very useful for other things including as an excellent pore filler.

Yep the LMI rod, if the truss rod channel is tight, does a pretty good job of sealing the rod from being contaminated by the epoxy. However, that filler strip is important in helping to reduce the chance of the rod vibrating in the future. Having the rod top rest on a softer wood filler strip and not the dense ebony/RS/You-name-it fret board is cheap insurance against what can be a nightmare situation to correct, a vibrating rod. No jokes please.

Again welcome!

[Dave White]

So I guess that you guys don't think that there is an "acoustic" coupling between the fingerboard and neck then that would make hot-hide/fish glue a better option here than epoxy? I too thought that hhg/fish glue cured by the water drying out. If you clamp up the neck when gluing using a perfectly striaght caul a la Cumpiano and leave it clamped long enough for the glue to fully cure then back-bow is minimal to zero - at least in my experience. Plus I don't finally level/radius the fingerboard until after it's glued on and the neck carved - plus string tension put's in a forward bow - plus I use two way adjustable truss rods. Plus I hate epoxy with a vengance (apart from the finishing/pore filling stuff).

Swings and roundabouts in everything - just another view.

[Hesh1956]

Well Dave mon I do believe that there is acoustic coupling happening (although I don't want to watch....) between the fret board and the neck. In fact I also believe that there is acoustic coupling happening between the fret board extension and the guitar body. We won't get into what might be happening with this coupling with adjustable necks......

And I agree with you if you are saying that epoxy does not dry into a thin, perhaps molecular level thick crystalline layer that is exceedingly hard. In fact I still see epoxy as a dampener, thick, sometimes even rubbery with cheap or old epoxy.

But the alternative is, at times, a back bowed or even warped neck.

Also on the "official" forum.... Mario would have a tissy fit if anyone defended using anything other than epoxy. Perhaps I am conditioned or just wimped out....

Now I could be wrong, something that I am very good at.... but in the threads on another forum someone submitted the idea that once moisture is trapped on the joint, even after it dries out, the wood at a molecular level is changed - forever. Remember that?

When I was was using Titebond for fret boards I had good luck shimming the neck and inducing about 1/8" of forward bow while gluing the fret board on. But admittedly it was hit and miss and did not always work.

Lastly I don't want to use the truss rod for anything other then adjustments in time and not as an off the bench remedy.

[Colin S]

I'm firmly with Dave on this one, I always used to use HHG for my fingerboards and glue then on with a full-length caul , then I wouldn't touch them for three days. Never on 30 or more instruments had a back bow of any sort, plus I get no damping. The only thing I've changed recently is to switch to fish glue for this job. I never let epoxy or CA glue near my instruments, just HHG and Fish. Proven low damping crystalline structure with a long service time.

The neck is underrated in terms of the final voice of the guitar, and don't forget that the strings are attached to one end of it!

Colin

[Dave White]

Hesh Mon,

Also on the "official" forum.... Mario would have a tissy fit if anyone defended using anything other than epoxy. Perhaps I am conditioned or just wimped out....

My motto in life is don't let yourself get bullied.

Now I could be wrong, something that I am very good at.... but in the threads on another forum someone submitted the idea that once moisture is trapped on the joint, even after it dries out, the wood at a molecular level is changed - forever. Remember that?

Me spliffs are fine mon What does wood being changed at a molecular level really mean? Is it good or bad - or does it "depend"? We don't seem to worry about this change on the tops when we use hhg for braces and bridge.

Lastly I don't want to use the truss rod for anything other then adjustments in time and not as an off the bench remedy.

I'm just guessing here but I would imagine that the first "in time" adjustment of the truss rod you do is around half and hour or so after the strings go on for the first time and the neck geometry settles in. Anyway - as I said, my fretboard levelling is after fingerboard glue on and neck shaping and I don't use the truss-rod to adjust prior to stringing up.

Actually now I think about it we need to do a poll on how often - if ever builders have taken a two way truss rod out of the "correct neck relief" mode, through "neutral" and into the "put in neck relief" mode. Most of us (including me) use two way adjustable rods but do we really need to?

I'm not riding a hobby horse here for not using epoxy. Just saying there are diffferent methods that suit other people. The time saved for me would be a little less (if any) sanding time when radiussing the fingerboard. Compared to the cost of filling the swearbox if I used epoxy for glueing the fingerboard and my emotional ying/yang balance disturbance this just doesn't cost in

[Hesh1956]

Fair enough Dave mon - all good points and the bridge argument was what I would call a great point.

Although a nit here I am always trying to consider the weight of my materials and this includes finish and glue as well. Epoxy is heavy stuff......

Regarding truss rods I have never used a 2X rod to induce forward bow and in most cases the rods on the guitars that I have built have only been ever so slightly engaged to avoid buzzing and not yet used for adjustment purposes. Relief seems to set in shortly after stringing up and continue to set in for perhaps a month or so. It never seems to exceed what I like to see in neck relief so I never touch the rods. But they are there for when and if they are needed.

Colin my friend you and I seem to remain the few CA haters in guitar building but I consider you to be excellent company!

[Ron Wisdom]

I've only used titebond on all my FB's so far and haven't had a problem.

I am wondering now, though, if maybe one was to dampen the back of the neck at the same time it might off set the moisture introduced via the FB.

Ron

[matthew]

The other thing that can help with hide glue is to prime the surfaces first with a thin coat. And if your joint is perfect fit, then there should be virtually no glue (or moisture) left in the joint once properly clamped. Perhaps the problems with HHG happen when too much glue is left in the joint. It's not a gap-filler and I've no doubt epoxy is easier to use.