Question, has anyone ever used Celery Top Pine as a Soundboard
as i read some where that some one had built full Guitar from Celery.
Cheers Bob,
Tone Woods
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Bob Connor
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Tigermyrtle
Hi Bob, thats interesting what you are saying that Sassy would make a good soundboard as we know its good for back and sides, i gave Rick Turner a few samples of different species to try out last time we met up, it will be good to see what he thinks, also within the next few months Andrew Morrow from CSIRO will have his report out on the qualitys of Australian Timbers as Tone Woods. Cheers Bob,
bob wrote:I've got one jointed and ready to go Bob but it'll be a month or so before I get started on it.
Which means I'll have some idea what it's like in 4 or 5 months.
I think Sassafras might make a better soundboard. The Sassy I have here is lighter in weight and has a better tap tone in my opinion.
Bob
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Rick Turner
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The blackheart sassafrass I got from Bob is beautiful and interesting, but I don't see it as an acoustic guitar top wood. It appears too dense for what would be considered normal tone for an acoustic. On the other hand, it would probably be fine on a uke based on what we've achieved with walnut, maple, and cherry. Just my opinion...
I still like timbers that are close to the known characteristics of spruce, western red cedar, and redwood for acoustic guitar tops. Low density and high modulus of elasticity both along and across the grain are the hallmarks of good tops.
I've been engaged in some very interesting and potentially fruitful correspondence with Bob McMillan here, Andrew Morrow from CSIRO who is doing some great research on Aussie timbers for tone wood, and two pals at Maton, Patrick Evans and Anthony Knowles.
Here, by the way, is a method of determining one of the important properties of timber...density...that I sent to the above blokes:
"All...there's a simple method of determining density in sample of timber, particularly irregularly shaped ones where measuring actual volume is nearly impossible. This came to me from a violin maker who personally sources spruce in the Italian Alps. Rough split wedges are almost impossible to actually measure, and yet that is the preferred way the timber comes through. Likewise too, rough sawn billets or bark edged flitches are tough to accurately measure, so the violin makers to it thusly:
Have a container of water tall enough to float your piece of sample timber either end up. A 30 or 55 gallon drum is perfect for this, or it can even be a bathtub or bucket of the sample is small enough. Float the billet in the water vertically and mark the water line on the billet. You must support the wood gently so it floats properly, but so you don't affect the waterline position. Immerse only long enough to get a measurement, not so long as to have the timber absorb any appreciable amount of water. Now flip the billet end to end and repeat making a mark at the waterline above or below your first mark. Measure the length of the billet, measure the depth of the two water lines and take the mean distance between those two waterline measurements. Divide the mean waterline measurement by the length of the billet and multiply that by the density of water.
You now have the specific gravity of your test piece of timber.
The beauty of this is that by flipping the billet end to end you average out any cross sectional anomalies in the timber. You can measure a sample that is virtually any shape, any cross section, is tapered or whatever as long as you know the length.
If you want to eliminate the issue of the billet getting wet, you can do one measurement on one day, and the next when the billet dries out. Sealing both ends would probably be a good idea, too, to cut down on rapid end grain absorption of water."
That's just for density. Modulus of Elasticity (Young's Modulus or stiffness to weight ratio) is also a key. These are factors that experienced luthiers have in their hands and ears, hence hefting, flexing and tapping to determine suitability, but with the work being done by some like Andrew Morrow, more of the mystery can come down to real and reasonably accurate numbers. We as luthiers still have to know what to do with the timbers and how to work with different pieces.
I still like timbers that are close to the known characteristics of spruce, western red cedar, and redwood for acoustic guitar tops. Low density and high modulus of elasticity both along and across the grain are the hallmarks of good tops.
I've been engaged in some very interesting and potentially fruitful correspondence with Bob McMillan here, Andrew Morrow from CSIRO who is doing some great research on Aussie timbers for tone wood, and two pals at Maton, Patrick Evans and Anthony Knowles.
Here, by the way, is a method of determining one of the important properties of timber...density...that I sent to the above blokes:
"All...there's a simple method of determining density in sample of timber, particularly irregularly shaped ones where measuring actual volume is nearly impossible. This came to me from a violin maker who personally sources spruce in the Italian Alps. Rough split wedges are almost impossible to actually measure, and yet that is the preferred way the timber comes through. Likewise too, rough sawn billets or bark edged flitches are tough to accurately measure, so the violin makers to it thusly:
Have a container of water tall enough to float your piece of sample timber either end up. A 30 or 55 gallon drum is perfect for this, or it can even be a bathtub or bucket of the sample is small enough. Float the billet in the water vertically and mark the water line on the billet. You must support the wood gently so it floats properly, but so you don't affect the waterline position. Immerse only long enough to get a measurement, not so long as to have the timber absorb any appreciable amount of water. Now flip the billet end to end and repeat making a mark at the waterline above or below your first mark. Measure the length of the billet, measure the depth of the two water lines and take the mean distance between those two waterline measurements. Divide the mean waterline measurement by the length of the billet and multiply that by the density of water.
You now have the specific gravity of your test piece of timber.
The beauty of this is that by flipping the billet end to end you average out any cross sectional anomalies in the timber. You can measure a sample that is virtually any shape, any cross section, is tapered or whatever as long as you know the length.
If you want to eliminate the issue of the billet getting wet, you can do one measurement on one day, and the next when the billet dries out. Sealing both ends would probably be a good idea, too, to cut down on rapid end grain absorption of water."
That's just for density. Modulus of Elasticity (Young's Modulus or stiffness to weight ratio) is also a key. These are factors that experienced luthiers have in their hands and ears, hence hefting, flexing and tapping to determine suitability, but with the work being done by some like Andrew Morrow, more of the mystery can come down to real and reasonably accurate numbers. We as luthiers still have to know what to do with the timbers and how to work with different pieces.
Rick Turner
Guitar Maker, Experimenter, Diviner
www.renaissanceguitars.com
www.d-tar.com
Guitar Maker, Experimenter, Diviner
www.renaissanceguitars.com
www.d-tar.com
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Tigermyrtle
G'Day Rick, i reckon your right there from Luthiers i have spoke with over the past 12 Months none have used Sassy for acoustic tops but as you say it might be good for Uke, but it will be great for back & Sides on acoustic, as for King Billy thats close to western red cedar so that could be good for Tops, also i have heard that Celery Top works. i will get samples for you. Regards Bob,
Rick Turner wrote:The blackheart sassafrass I got from Bob is beautiful and interesting, but I don't see it as an acoustic guitar top wood. It appears too dense for what would be considered normal tone for an acoustic. On the other hand, it would probably be fine on a uke based on what we've achieved with walnut, maple, and cherry. Just my opinion...
I still like timbers that are close to the known characteristics of spruce, western red cedar, and redwood for acoustic guitar tops. Low density and high modulus of elasticity both along and across the grain are the hallmarks of good tops.
I've been engaged in some very interesting and potentially fruitful correspondence with Bob McMillan here, Andrew Morrow from CSIRO who is doing some great research on Aussie timbers for tone wood, and two pals at Maton, Patrick Evans and Anthony Knowles.
Here, by the way, is a method of determining one of the important properties of timber...density...that I sent to the above blokes:
"All...there's a simple method of determining density in sample of timber, particularly irregularly shaped ones where measuring actual volume is nearly impossible. This came to me from a violin maker who personally sources spruce in the Italian Alps. Rough split wedges are almost impossible to actually measure, and yet that is the preferred way the timber comes through. Likewise too, rough sawn billets or bark edged flitches are tough to accurately measure, so the violin makers to it thusly:
Have a container of water tall enough to float your piece of sample timber either end up. A 30 or 55 gallon drum is perfect for this, or it can even be a bathtub or bucket of the sample is small enough. Float the billet in the water vertically and mark the water line on the billet. You must support the wood gently so it floats properly, but so you don't affect the waterline position. Immerse only long enough to get a measurement, not so long as to have the timber absorb any appreciable amount of water. Now flip the billet end to end and repeat making a mark at the waterline above or below your first mark. Measure the length of the billet, measure the depth of the two water lines and take the mean distance between those two waterline measurements. Divide the mean waterline measurement by the length of the billet and multiply that by the density of water.
You now have the specific gravity of your test piece of timber.
The beauty of this is that by flipping the billet end to end you average out any cross sectional anomalies in the timber. You can measure a sample that is virtually any shape, any cross section, is tapered or whatever as long as you know the length.
If you want to eliminate the issue of the billet getting wet, you can do one measurement on one day, and the next when the billet dries out. Sealing both ends would probably be a good idea, too, to cut down on rapid end grain absorption of water."
That's just for density. Modulus of Elasticity (Young's Modulus or stiffness to weight ratio) is also a key. These are factors that experienced luthiers have in their hands and ears, hence hefting, flexing and tapping to determine suitability, but with the work being done by some like Andrew Morrow, more of the mystery can come down to real and reasonably accurate numbers. We as luthiers still have to know what to do with the timbers and how to work with different pieces.
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Tigermyrtle
Good Morning Matthew, sorry mate i have run out of free sample's. Regards Bob, on other note do you have any free samples of King Prawns.?
matthew wrote:Yeah, KB could be good for tops. Hmmmm. I suppose I could test King Billy as a double bass top, if you can send a free sample.
The sample would need to be 1200 x 360 x 100, quartersawn and dry
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Tigermyrtle
G'Day Bob, keep me up to date on your Celery top as a soundboard.
on another note it is possible that your Sasafrass is lighter in weight than the piece Rick has, it will be interesting to find out if you ever use some as a soundboard. Cheers Bob,
on another note it is possible that your Sasafrass is lighter in weight than the piece Rick has, it will be interesting to find out if you ever use some as a soundboard. Cheers Bob,
bob wrote:I've got one jointed and ready to go Bob but it'll be a month or so before I get started on it.
Which means I'll have some idea what it's like in 4 or 5 months.
I think Sassafras might make a better soundboard. The Sassy I have here is lighter in weight and has a better tap tone in my opinion.
Bob
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Bob Connor
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Bob
The Sassy that I've got is lighter in weight than a Mahogany back set that I have in the shed. And Mahogany topped guitars have been produced for years and make fine instruments.
They just don't sound like spruce.
It also has a nicer tap tone to my ear than the Celery top I have and the Celery is heavier. The Celery just looks more like Spruce.
I have both jointed so some time this year there'll be a Sassy and Celery topped guitar to compare. I also have some Bunyah which'll get built at the same time as the other two. (still not impressed with Bunyah but we'll reserve judgement until one is built)
And yes the Sassafras I have is very light. I've just finished a guitar with it and it weighs 1500 grams in total. (that's 3.3 pounds fore you metrically challenged lot in the States
) Admittedly it's an O model and pretty small but others we've produced have come nowhere near that.
Rick - I was speaking with Pat Evans a few months back. He was pleasantly surprised by the tone of one of our King Billy guitars. According to him they had tried it at Maton for steel strings for tops but found it either too thick for a decent sound (he described it as "kind of plunky"
) or they thinned it for sound and lost structural integrity.
I don't know what size these instruments were but it is my feeling that a smaller bodied instrument like an O or OO would be more suited to KB to add stiffness due to the smaller spans.
Bob
The Sassy that I've got is lighter in weight than a Mahogany back set that I have in the shed. And Mahogany topped guitars have been produced for years and make fine instruments.
They just don't sound like spruce.
It also has a nicer tap tone to my ear than the Celery top I have and the Celery is heavier. The Celery just looks more like Spruce.
I have both jointed so some time this year there'll be a Sassy and Celery topped guitar to compare. I also have some Bunyah which'll get built at the same time as the other two. (still not impressed with Bunyah but we'll reserve judgement until one is built)
And yes the Sassafras I have is very light. I've just finished a guitar with it and it weighs 1500 grams in total. (that's 3.3 pounds fore you metrically challenged lot in the States
) Admittedly it's an O model and pretty small but others we've produced have come nowhere near that.Rick - I was speaking with Pat Evans a few months back. He was pleasantly surprised by the tone of one of our King Billy guitars. According to him they had tried it at Maton for steel strings for tops but found it either too thick for a decent sound (he described it as "kind of plunky"
) or they thinned it for sound and lost structural integrity.I don't know what size these instruments were but it is my feeling that a smaller bodied instrument like an O or OO would be more suited to KB to add stiffness due to the smaller spans.
Bob
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Tigermyrtle
Hi Bob,
i have found over the years, that same species weigh different when dry depending on what part of the log the timber is cut from, i could be wrong.
as for King Billy, i was talking with Patrick Evans at Maton last week and he was saying the same as you were told about King Billy. but the Logs of King Billy that were available in the past were mostly rubbish left over from Hydro Dams. i will only be sourcing Old Growth Logs from Private property, selective Logging and we will be replanting. Regards Bob.
i have found over the years, that same species weigh different when dry depending on what part of the log the timber is cut from, i could be wrong.
as for King Billy, i was talking with Patrick Evans at Maton last week and he was saying the same as you were told about King Billy. but the Logs of King Billy that were available in the past were mostly rubbish left over from Hydro Dams. i will only be sourcing Old Growth Logs from Private property, selective Logging and we will be replanting. Regards Bob.
bob wrote:Bob
The Sassy that I've got is lighter in weight than a Mahogany back set that I have in the shed. And Mahogany topped guitars have been produced for years and make fine instruments.
They just don't sound like spruce.
It also has a nicer tap tone to my ear than the Celery top I have and the Celery is heavier. The Celery just looks more like Spruce.
I have both jointed so some time this year there'll be a Sassy and Celery topped guitar to compare. I also have some Bunyah which'll get built at the same time as the other two. (still not impressed with Bunyah but we'll reserve judgement until one is built)
And yes the Sassafras I have is very light. I've just finished a guitar with it and it weighs 1500 grams in total. (that's 3.3 pounds fore you metrically challenged lot in the States
Rick - I was speaking with Pat Evans a few months back. He was pleasantly surprised by the tone of one of our King Billy guitars. According to him they had tried it at Maton for steel strings for tops but found it either too thick for a decent sound (he described it as "kind of plunky"
I don't know what size these instruments were but it is my feeling that a smaller bodied instrument like an O or OO would be more suited to KB to add stiffness due to the smaller spans.
Bob
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Rick Turner
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With the kind of research Andrew is doing on the timbers plus the statistics av available on "traditional" tone woods, we should be able to put together a nice spreadsheet that shows all the relevant characteristics quantified for sample pieces of timber. This should at least put a ballpark context in place that would allow you to compare MOE along and across the grain, density, radial and tangential shrinkage, etc. among the timbers. That should at least help narrowing down what might work and what probably would not work for tops and backs and sides.
There's the school of thought that asserts that you have to try each timber before you know whether it works or not for instruments, however I think that we can certainly narrow the field somewhat by comparing relevant numbers.
There's the school of thought that asserts that you have to try each timber before you know whether it works or not for instruments, however I think that we can certainly narrow the field somewhat by comparing relevant numbers.
Rick Turner
Guitar Maker, Experimenter, Diviner
www.renaissanceguitars.com
www.d-tar.com
Guitar Maker, Experimenter, Diviner
www.renaissanceguitars.com
www.d-tar.com
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Rick Turner
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Ever hear of Google?
I don't mean to be snarky, but research is right there at your fingertips...and I recall this being covered in high school physics...
Here's one citation:
http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae157.cfm
The density of water is generally considered to be 1...that's "specific gravity". Of course it's temperature dependent, but close enough is close enough. You can translate it into pounds per cubic foot or kilos per cubic meter or whatever floats or sinks your boat, but it's one of the essential numbers in figuring out timber. You Aussies have a lot of dense stuff...timber that barely floats. Some timbers don't float, and for those you'd have to use a different method of determining density. Less dense than water will have numbers under 1.00; denser than water will have numbers higher than 1.00.
I don't mean to be snarky, but research is right there at your fingertips...and I recall this being covered in high school physics...
Here's one citation:
http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae157.cfm
The density of water is generally considered to be 1...that's "specific gravity". Of course it's temperature dependent, but close enough is close enough. You can translate it into pounds per cubic foot or kilos per cubic meter or whatever floats or sinks your boat, but it's one of the essential numbers in figuring out timber. You Aussies have a lot of dense stuff...timber that barely floats. Some timbers don't float, and for those you'd have to use a different method of determining density. Less dense than water will have numbers under 1.00; denser than water will have numbers higher than 1.00.
Rick Turner
Guitar Maker, Experimenter, Diviner
www.renaissanceguitars.com
www.d-tar.com
Guitar Maker, Experimenter, Diviner
www.renaissanceguitars.com
www.d-tar.com
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Rick Turner
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Mathew,
Rick's probably not aware that we are a nation of avid home brewers and therefore, the importance of us understanding the specific gravity of water simply cannot be overstated. After all, it is the very mark every self respecting Aussie brewmeister seeks to avoid and is indeed what makes beers like Budweiser soo unpalatable to us.
I guess this is the very reason why 'Understanding and Using the Hydrometer 101' is on the curriculum for preschoolers here before 'Beer, it's use and Function within a Modern Progressive Society' even gets a look in, and I guess that really is how it should be when you stop to think about it. It's all about priorities 
Cheers
Kim
Rick's probably not aware that we are a nation of avid home brewers and therefore, the importance of us understanding the specific gravity of water simply cannot be overstated. After all, it is the very mark every self respecting Aussie brewmeister seeks to avoid and is indeed what makes beers like Budweiser soo unpalatable to us.
I guess this is the very reason why 'Understanding and Using the Hydrometer 101' is on the curriculum for preschoolers here before 'Beer, it's use and Function within a Modern Progressive Society' even gets a look in, and I guess that really is how it should be when you stop to think about it. It's all about priorities
Cheers
Kim
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matthew
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Sssshh Kim ... don't let out the secret Australian tonewood-improver of immersing the split billets into beer, first one end, then the other. The one which accounts for the mottled colouration of some bunya pine, which only floats on its side, due to the Aurora Coriolis effect, except when Coopers is used, when it sinks to the bottom and has to be decanted over ice ... then, the gravity of the specific situation is such that multiplying by one is not enough.
Then, there is the unspeakable treatment some Aussie Luthiers mete out to the common "long-neck", in fact I'm surprised no-one has suggested to Kiwigeo that he remove the extremity of his latest problem with a simple twist ...
Oh, that's right ... his problem is a stubby, not a long-neck.
Then, there is the unspeakable treatment some Aussie Luthiers mete out to the common "long-neck", in fact I'm surprised no-one has suggested to Kiwigeo that he remove the extremity of his latest problem with a simple twist ...
Oh, that's right ... his problem is a stubby, not a long-neck.
Well, now the cat really is out of the bag isn't it Mathewmatthew wrote:Sssshh Kim ... don't let out the secret Australian tonewood-improver of immersing the split billets into beer, first one end, then the other. The one which accounts for the mottled colouration of some bunya pine, which only floats on its side, due to the Aurora Coriolis effect, except when Coopers is used, when it sinks to the bottom and has to be decanted over ice ... then, the gravity of the specific situation is such that multiplying by one is not enough.
But, since you bring up the 'Aurora Coriolis effect', I guess it is safe to assume that the very same billet of bunya in the barrel of beer would be incline to bath upon it's other side if the brew where banished to the northern hemisphere no?
And as for Coopers, I agree wholeheartedly. One truly is never enough
Cheers
Kim
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matthew
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Here's a sassy scroll that I dipped in pale ale. Coopers, of course.
But it seems the italians had a different idea:
"Nagyvary began soaking chunks of spruce and maple in brews of preservative chemicals. He knew that some woodworkers soaked their lumber in solutions containing bovine dung and urine. So he put up a sign above a tub in a men's room in the biochemistry lab: "Please contribute generously to violin research."
Full article here
http://www.guardian.co.uk/saturday_revi ... 86,00.html
I can only wonder what they use in the US of A
But it seems the italians had a different idea:
"Nagyvary began soaking chunks of spruce and maple in brews of preservative chemicals. He knew that some woodworkers soaked their lumber in solutions containing bovine dung and urine. So he put up a sign above a tub in a men's room in the biochemistry lab: "Please contribute generously to violin research."
Full article here
http://www.guardian.co.uk/saturday_revi ... 86,00.html
I can only wonder what they use in the US of A
Nicely executed scroll Mathew and thanks for posting that really interesting link. For me the mineral deposits theory seems to quite literally rings true.
I have a dark purple/plum coloured Sinker Redwood top that I bought from Rick Micheletti a few years back. I have some good tops in my stash now that pretty much cover the full gamut of the usual suspects. That sinker top is not only the stiffest, it has by far the most bright and reactive tap tone of the lot, it's alive
Anyhow for what it's worth given my limited experience, I most certainly do feel that Nagyvary is on to something here. Maybe Sinker KingBilly would be the Aussie grail
Cheers
Kim
I have a dark purple/plum coloured Sinker Redwood top that I bought from Rick Micheletti a few years back. I have some good tops in my stash now that pretty much cover the full gamut of the usual suspects. That sinker top is not only the stiffest, it has by far the most bright and reactive tap tone of the lot, it's alive
Anyhow for what it's worth given my limited experience, I most certainly do feel that Nagyvary is on to something here. Maybe Sinker KingBilly would be the Aussie grail
Cheers
Kim
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matthew
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Well, FWIW there are a hell of a lot of people who think that Nagyvary is a wanker with little real science behind his claims. And claims he makes by the mountain.
Nonetheless, he makes OK violins apparently, and certainly knows how to play the newspapers ... he ain't backward in coming forward.
Nonetheless, he makes OK violins apparently, and certainly knows how to play the newspapers ... he ain't backward in coming forward.
Last edited by matthew on Tue May 13, 2008 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Matt, You have to be very very careful using irony around our american friends. I believe no one with an ironic sense of humour ever migrated there and, as a consequence the whole gene pool is totally devoid of the irony recognition gene.matthew wrote:Oh dear. I thought you'd see the irony in multiplying by 1, but you assumed instead that I was too dense to know the density of water.
Ha suckers, lambs to the slaughter.
You can bomb the world to pieces,
but you can't bomb the world to peace!
but you can't bomb the world to peace!
A wanker Nagyvary may be, however he is not the first to give the 'mineral deposit' theory a run in order to explain the exceptional tonal properties of sinker wood.matthew wrote:Well, FWIW there are a hell of a lot of people who think that Nagyvary is a wanker with little real science behind his claims. And claims he makes by the mountain.
Nonetheless, he makes OK violins apparently, and certainly knows how to play the newspapers ... he ain't backward in coming forward.
Cheers
Kim
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