12, 13,14, Cutaway?

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jeffhigh
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12, 13,14, Cutaway?

Post by jeffhigh » Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:19 am

Ok guys, If building a guitar for yourself rather than a customer, what do you prefer?
Jeff

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Tom Morici
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Post by Tom Morici » Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:16 pm

Jeff,


Several things come to mind for me, first would be the body style, I prefer a medium size for my playing comfort. I don't build copys of common builds, so for the sake of discussin let's use the 000 or 0M
martin style as a example. You could still use the 14th fret as the body joint. I would expect a slight loss in volume and bass response.

My thought is less soundboard and less body volume.

Now build the same style with a 13th fret body joint, this moves the bridge to a location on the soundboard where it is slightly wider.
In theory this should enhance (slightly) both the volume and bass reponse.

Now use the 12th fret as the body joint, and this should place the bridge in the widest spot on the soundboard. This is the reason most classical guitars have a 12 fret body joint.

The next consideration is how you play if you are use to playing a 14th fret body joint guitar, I would think a 12th fret body joint will take some getting use to. Since you stated this was for you. This is your choice. Most cutaway styles I build for customers are the 14th fret joint style. It is what they want.

My personal guitar with a cutaway, has a 14th fret body joint. I confess I seldom play past the 12th fret.

Just food for thought,Hope this helps.

Tom

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Post by jeffhigh » Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:17 pm

Thanks Tom for the detailed and considered reply.
To be clear. I am not asking what I should build, that as you state does depend on my playing style etc.
I guess what I am asking is , Building for oneself,uninfluenced by the need to sell and meet market expectations what do you guys go for.
Jeff

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Dave White
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Post by Dave White » Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:09 pm

jeffhigh wrote:I guess what I am asking is , Building for oneself,uninfluenced by the need to sell and meet market expectations what do you guys go for.
Jeff
Probably one of each :D
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Bob Connor
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Post by Bob Connor » Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:09 pm

One of each. I'm a greedy bugger. :D

Seriously - all of the instruments I've built for myself have been 14 fretters but I'm keen on building some 12 fret dreads and O-models.

Bob

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Allen
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Post by Allen » Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:10 pm

I built a 14 fret cutaway OM that sold to the first person that saw it. It's a lovely guitar with really nice lines. A complete pain to build though compared to a non cutaway. As for getting much use out of frets 15-19 on a acoustic, well I'll let the customer be the judge of that. I think for many people, they are buying with their eyes, and if the proportions look right to them, and they like the overall package, then they hear what they want to hear within reason. And who are we to argue. :wink:

For a personal guitar I like small bodies, simply because they are more comfortable to hold. Though when you try and find a case for one, I tend to get a lot of blank stares and quiestions like, "So it's not a Dread Case that you want"?

I love a Florentine cutaway, and really dislike the Venetian style. I don't care one way or the other if it's 12, 13, or 14 fret to the body, as long as the proportions suit my eye. Though I suspect a 12 fret cutaway would look a bit odd.

I was in a local music shop a few months ago and they had just got in a 12 fret, slot head, small body Fender from their Custom Shop. Every person in the store had to pick it up and admire it. Played it some, then it was sold within 1/2 hour of being displayed. At $2800 it was on the high end for what they usually sell in this music shop.
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Dave White
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Post by Dave White » Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:33 pm

Tom Morici wrote: Now build the same style with a 13th fret body joint, this moves the bridge to a location on the soundboard where it is slightly wider.
In theory this should enhance (slightly) both the volume and bass reponse.

Now use the 12th fret as the body joint, and this should place the bridge in the widest spot on the soundboard. This is the reason most classical guitars have a 12 fret body joint.
Tom,

Interesting stuff. A couple of points though. You don't have to keep moving the bridge - you can change the upper bout shape and keep the bridge in exctly the same spot if you want to for a 12,13, or 14 frets clear of the boby design with the same scale length. Allso the widest point of the lower bout is not necessarily the most active part of the top - it depends where the upper transverse brace goes. The centre of the active part is "probably" a good place to have a bridge. On a classical this is further down the lower bout than on a steel-string due to the transverse brace just below the sound-hole.

Jeff,

Sorry for the frivolous answer, I've done all three:

12 fret:
Image

13 fret:
Image

14 fret:
Image

Even better doe a 16 fret clear body join and you don't need a cutaway at all:
Image
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James Mc
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Post by James Mc » Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:54 pm

Well each to their own but for me the sound is most important thing… Classical standard size (still undecided on cutaway) good volume balance between bass, mids and treble, nice clear notes without too much sustain, loud but not at the cost of it becoming muddled when played hard.

Strong preference for local timbers, not a fan of WRC tops (some sound great but just never exactly what I like best). I like timber with a bit of character so no issues with unusual grain patterns or discoloured tops. I wouldn’t hesitate at a four piece back from recycled timber, in fact giving a nice piece of timber a second life as a guitar is very appealing to me.

Finish… a few coats of shellac then a bit of a buff, not necessarily a full French polish (but I don’t mind it). I have a strong eversion to thick heavy gloss finishes, I want to see the timber not my reflection. Love the smell of Spanish cedar when you open the case, so would use it where I could for braces, blocks etc. Simple elegant tuners, not overly detailed and I’ve never noticed a difference between Fustero tuners at a few hundred bucks, Shaller and Gototh around the $60 to $100 mark and Der Jung at $25.

If I were going to use a local timber for back and sides just based on appearance, then my choice would be Burdekin Plum. I suspect it would work well; Eucalypt Banjos uses it for tone rings for its resonance.

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Post by ozziebluesman » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:21 pm

Yep i'm with James and his comments.

When i make the next guitar for myself, tone and playability will be the most important attributes. My style is Blues so a 12 fret 000 is my choice and the smaller body size is very comfortable to play. I like to tune down to a tone below concert pitch to suit my voice and the 000 will give a nice deep, focused tone tuned to D. Setup with some medium strings and can hear it already.

A flawless finish is not a requirement for me. As James said just enough to see the grain and protect the guitar from moisture.

My next build will be two 000's using Stew Mac's plan one with a red spruce top and some opportunity rosewood back and sides. The other bunya pine top and tassie alpine ash back and sides. If i make them well enough then it will be up to the musician side of me to extract good tone.

On the other hand if i build some successful, nice simple instruments over the next few years i may be ready then to tackle a florintine cutaway and some fancy inlay just because i love to challange myself!!!

Cheers

Alan

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Tom Morici
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Post by Tom Morici » Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:17 pm

Dave,

Good point about adding lenght at the upper bout. There are plenty examples of standard 12 fret models that have longer bodies then there
14 fret models of the same style One example is the Martin D18s a 12 fret Dred.

My statement about moving the bridge was based on using a standard
body size as an example. I know that you and I, and others don't build
copys of traditional models. But many more do. So I try and use a well
known model when explaning my thoughs.

I find your comment that bridge location on a classical would be based
on the transverse brace location,is the reverse of my thinking.
You may be right so I will keep my thoughts open on this.

I agree,and I am glad you mentioned that the widest part of the lower bout may not be the optimal location for the bridge, there is a sweet spot. Fun stuff to discuss just the same.

Allen,

I have noticed the same thing. Customers pick a guitar with there eyes
first,tone and volume, then playability. Im sure I am guilty of the same thing. I like the ventian cutaway and don't care for the florentine style, I guess I just like rounded things.

Cheers
Tom

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Post by Dominic » Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:03 pm

Allen wrote:As for getting much use out of frets 15-19 on a acoustic, well I'll let the customer be the judge of that. I think for many people, they are buying with their eyes, and if the proportions look right to them, and they like the overall package, then they hear what they want to hear within reason. And who are we to argue. :wink:
Allen, try playing the intro to Metallica's 'To Live is to die' on a non-cutaway. Beautiful classical inspired piece that needs access to the upper frets. Can't be done on a standard. That song alone should be enough to convince any acoustic player to go for a cutaway.
Dom
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graham mcdonald
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Post by graham mcdonald » Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:44 pm

An 0 or 00 Martin copy, 12 fret, slot head. They do not come any more elegant 8)

cheers

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Post by WaddyT » Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:36 am

Spanish style Classical, even tempered all the way up the fret board. Nice round open sound with good balance between basses and trebles. Warm full tone, but not dark and mysterious like many cedar topped classicals. I may, someday build a classical with a cedar top, but not soon. My only build so far is close to what I am looking for in sound - 1973 Romanillos plantilla. Actually a small and thin bodied classical, but much bolder than I expected. Probably a little quieter than I would ultimately like, but I figure that's a builder problem, not a problem of the design. I would like to have gotten a little more out of it, but was afraid to tweak too much, because it sounds so good. I didn't want to spoil it, and have too much bass or something like that. I'm a terminal tweaker, but I didn't want a coffee table that becomes a tray, because you can't get it to quit rocking on the floor. Then when I check, I find out there is a dip in the floor it was built on.
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