Feedback please.

Talk about musical instrument construction, setup and repair.

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DarwinStrings
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Feedback please.

Post by DarwinStrings » Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:12 am

I would really like to get some opinions on this heel, would you buy a guitar like this if you though it sounded good or would you always opt for something with a normal heel.

Jim
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Re: Feedback please.

Post by simso » Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:18 am

I think they look very average, I instantly think of the early acoustic epi's with the same design that always had the neck blocks fail.

So me no..
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Re: Feedback please.

Post by peter.coombe » Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:20 am

I would avoid. Looks designed to fail to me.

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DarwinStrings
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Re: Feedback please.

Post by DarwinStrings » Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:37 am

Okay, I never thought of it that way, would you care to explain why you think it would fail?

Jim
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Re: Feedback please.

Post by DaveW » Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:43 am

at first I thought .....that looks pretty ordinary then it started to grow on me a bit,I imagine it is just like a tele neck with 4 bolts ? which makes it easier to repair and will also give a bit better access to the higher frets without a cutaway which I imagine was the intended purpose ?
but no I wouldnt buy it probably,well put it this way if there were to identical guitars and one had a more traditional heal I would opt for the traditional .......Im to much of a traditionalist I guess
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DarwinStrings
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Re: Feedback please.

Post by DarwinStrings » Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:51 am

Have a look at the full pics at the bottom of THIS page Dave and see if that helps with the "look"

Jim

The basic design is from a Tele Dave but it doesn't have the same bolt set up, I have done that before on acoustics and this time wanted to "hide" the bolts. Yes I like it for the reasons you stated, makes sense to me.
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Re: Feedback please.

Post by J.F. Custom » Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:10 pm

Hi Jim.

Gabriel Ochoteco (of Ochoteco Guitars Brisbane) does his necks similar to this on every model he makes. He has done so for a very long time - like 20 years?
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I doubt he would be continuing with the design if it were failing! So I certainly think it can be made to work with careful planning.

Of course, sales and marketing are another thing altogether... In his case, it probably helps to have designed it to be a 'feature' in conjunction with the extended cutaway for fret access. To a new customer, that makes it obvious it was a 'whole' thought out design approach.

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Re: Feedback please.

Post by ozziebluesman » Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:00 pm

Hi Jim,

Looks to me like how Maton make there mini acoustic guitars with a set neck design that I have seen several times fail, especially the Diesel 12 string model. I am building a mini Maton copy for my daughter but it won't have that neck design.

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Alan
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DarwinStrings
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Re: Feedback please.

Post by DarwinStrings » Sun Jun 16, 2013 3:17 pm

Opinions are not looking good so far, with Alan and Steve citing failed factory guitars then Peter deciding it would fail based on the way it looks citing no other reason. I take from that that prejudice is going to be a big hurdle. The reason I like it and decided to use it Jeremy is cause I don't like the look of cutaways so much but getting those few extra frets with more comfort I do like. Personally I really like the look of a well shaped heel but don't see much of a need for them other that aesthetics which I agree are important to many.

Jim
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Re: Feedback please.

Post by simso » Sun Jun 16, 2013 3:23 pm

Gabriel gets away with his, because hes been doing it since the days of epi's, that and the fact gabriel is one of the nicest guys around, Ive had a beer or two in sydney with him.

I think for most other people its a hard sell.
Steve
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Re: Feedback please.

Post by jeffhigh » Sun Jun 16, 2013 3:28 pm

Jim I'm pretty sure the way you have detailed the joint should be fine
There have been some dodgy heel less necks in the past but that should not stop you
I have read of something similar in the 60's by a european manufacturer I think. with a hook and plate joint which failed because the plate was too thin. Yours looks solid.

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Re: Feedback please.

Post by DarwinStrings » Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:08 pm

Thanks Jeff, I have always valued your opinion on those matters of structure and you are correct, those little hooks can take my 87kg body weight hanging off them while I do chinups and you couldn't pull those screws out with a Estwing, well not without shearing the heads off anyway.

So if I am a really nice guy Steve then you reckon I could sell it?

Jim
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Re: Feedback please.

Post by ozziebluesman » Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:28 pm

As far as playability goes the little Maton guitars I had to repair where great with that extra fingerboard access the set neck and no heel give you up at the 12th fret and further. The little Maton is 14th fret to the body which is also a positive feature to the player imo for a small sized guitar. I think the 12 string mini Maton failed due to the reason most 12 strings suffer over time with the extra string tension created and not due to the set neck without the heel design. I will be keeping an eye on the conclusion of this thread! :wink:

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Alan
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Re: Feedback please.

Post by DarwinStrings » Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:37 pm

Alan, when you say "set neck" do you mean glued?(I have not seen those mini Matons up close yet) Mine just come off, take the strings off and pull the neck out, no bolts to undo. I have made provision for a small screw through the headblock just in case someone one day pulls the strings off without knowing the design but it is not needed while the guitar is in my hands.

Jim
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Re: Feedback please.

Post by jeffhigh » Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:38 pm

Hi Alan, can you detail where and how the failure occurred?
Those Mini Matons have a huge neckblock, is the neck just glued in to a mortice?

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Re: Feedback please.

Post by Allen » Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:39 pm

First time I've seen this post Jim, and while it may or may not fail, depending totally of course on how it's put together, my gut reaction to it is that I just wouldn't pick it up purely because of the aesthetics.

People are a finicky lot when it comes to what they like or don't like. It's out of the norm for an acoustic guitar where even though there has been a lot of innovation in the last 10 or so years. They are still pretty much traditional in quite a few aspects. Seeing a heel that extends to the back is one I feel most people will expect.

But I certainly see your point in streamlining and easing the construction process. Boat Paddle Ukuleles and now Pete Howlett is using a similar system on some models, but then the uke buying public are more open to something different.
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Re: Feedback please.

Post by DaveW » Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:07 pm

Hi Jim,
I think someone "hit the nail on the head" when they mentioned marketing
I appreciate the design and if it wasnt for us as "Luthiers " guitars would still be ....."LUTES"
but I think that for the people who are going to spend a lot ,sorry what they consider to be a lot of money on a handmade guitar it may take some time before they accept something visually different.
it will happen but if you "need " to make a living immediately you will be pretty brave ,still can be an option ,
shit I sound so conservative i annoy myself !!!!
Dave
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Re: Feedback please.

Post by charangohabsburg » Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:19 pm

Hi Jim,

Without having read yet the other's opinions I would say that guitars with this kind of heel, displayed in a guitar store, website or instrument builders fair surely would not be the best selling ones. But I don't think that there would be structural issues if there is "something" inside the guitar that can hold the neck (for example thinking of the "inside part" of a Spanish heel).

When some years ago, on a Spanish guitar forum I was involved in a discussion about upper frets access and possible improvements through a cutaway, a raised fingerboard and not yet invented solutions, I was throwing in this idea of just skipping the outer part of the Spanish heel, making the inner part maybe a bit beefier. An experienced guitar builder then replied that this design would fail, but he could not explain why it should fail, and he never had tried such a design either. Me on the other side, could not see one single reason why it should fail structurally (and of course also never had done or even seen such a thing myself). But of course, the outer part of the heel will hide the joining line of the sides which saves building time, and if the guitar is not commissioned it will most probably sell easier if done (= looking) the "normal" way.
Markus

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Re: Feedback please.

Post by DarwinStrings » Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:25 pm

Allen wrote:But I certainly see your point in streamlining and easing the construction process.
I am not sure it's so much about that for me Allen, making that bracket by hand is a fiddle and has to be accurate (care to post you mill up here for a while so I can knock out a few). I have to get the neck pocket spot on for yaw, although I could adjust yaw it would leave uneven gaps on either side of what would be the fret board extension. It is easily disassembled though.

I have considered using the same joint with a pseudo heel, because of the aesthetic. Even one that only stuck out by 10mm would improve reach and give the look but without using a cutaway how else do you get the extra reach? Easy enough to build it as a cutaway but that ain't real traditional for a parlour either.


Jim

Edit..Good point Markus "normal"
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Re: Feedback please.

Post by Trevor Gore » Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:28 pm

Jim, from the technical standpoint I can't see anything wrong with your design. It is at least as secure as many dovetail or bolt-on joints. And Leo has been doing a similar sort of thing for well over 50 years with millions of working examples. So, all (ha) you're faced with is out and out prejudice about the look. Don't underestimate the power of that; ask any short person, heavy person, non-white person, etc.. I've done two similar designs, because from the playability, engineering and production point of view they make so much sense. The second design has a totally vestigial heel; there just for the look, would be better off and less expensive without it, except that it will sell much more easily with it. Sometimes you just have to recognise the state of the market for what it is.

Gabriel Ochoteco's design is neat. In my view, the reason he's got away with it is because he's taken the trouble to cosmetically integrate the design (same principle as my vestigial heel). That's important. Most people don't have a clue about the engineering of the thing, but it has to look right and look like it will hold up; and if it looks right people will buy it, even if it's technically inferior.

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Re: Feedback please.

Post by DarwinStrings » Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:50 pm

Leo is my hero Trevor, he is the man that inspired that joint directly. I found your bit in the book on this type of thing yesterday and I totally understand the prejudice, I reckon I understand aesthetics well too, most of my work involves that but for a small guitar without a cutaway (I don't have the heart to put one in a parlour) surly it makes more sense than having that heel in the way. As you can see it is also 14 fret which ain't great for the bridge so I took the hole up a bit to get a bit more board in there. I guess I just can't do something purely from a "sales" point of view. I pretty much expected people would not like it cause it don't look "normal" although the structural failure comments were a bit unexpected.

Jim
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Re: Feedback please.

Post by charangohabsburg » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:06 pm

In my former post, after having explained why I would buy a guitar with his kind of heel I forgot to write that (of course) I would buy, or maybe even prefer a guitar of this design (which would be my short answer to your short OP question. But maybe I only would do so because I have thought about it before - from the builder's perspective.

I have quickly read now the other's opinions and stumbled across this one:
DaveW wrote:but I think that for the people who are going to spend a lot ,sorry what they consider to be a lot of money on a handmade guitar it may take some time before they accept something visually different.
If one offers an unusual design it will be better received if it costs more! (More than other guitars of the same luthier, of course).
Markus

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Re: Feedback please.

Post by DarwinStrings » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:14 pm

Ha! Markus gets the position of my marketing manger. "Of course this one is nice Sir but it is very normal, this one over here however has a much better reach for the higher notes, designed specifically for a fine guitar player like yourself who knows that paying that little bit extra will get you those high note you desire".

Jim

P.S. You should have been around when I sold that 24 fret Tele shaped one, I might have got a bit more money for it.
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Re: Feedback please.

Post by ozziebluesman » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:36 pm

Hi Jim,

Yes it is glued in and the bottom of the fingerboard to the top.

G'day Jeff,

The neck block on the little Maton is 80 mm long x 70 mm wide x 80 mm deep and the neck itself is glued in as per a Les Paul set neck. The neck itself is fitted into a pocket 25 mm deep by 58 mm wide x 58 mm from the 14th fret at the body. I was able to get the playing action to a playable height but it will need a neck reset at some stage. The whole neck block has moved in a upward direction which has caused the neck to be at a vee at the body join. Seems to me that some attention is needed top bracing north of the sound hole. Mate, I'm no expert here. I spent sometime and took all the spec in view of building one for my daughter. I am half way there but I didn't go with the same neck joint design as the Maton.

Here is a picture so far:

Cheers

Alan
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Re: Feedback please.

Post by charangohabsburg » Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:01 pm

DarwinStrings wrote:Ha! Markus gets the position of my marketing manger. "Of course this one is nice Sir but it is very normal, this one over here however has a much better reach for the higher notes, designed specifically for a fine guitar player like yourself who knows that paying that little bit extra will get you those high note you desire".
Thank you Jim, I gratefully accept your offer! :D
Seriously: why should one do a different design if it isn't a better design? Better can't be cheaper. Never. Of course, cutting down production costs could be another reason (which clearly is not the case with this heel-less neck joint), but this is not what the customer wants to hear, not even if in the end the guitar would sell for a bit less money.
Markus

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It's only the others who suffer.

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