Feedback please.

Talk about musical instrument construction, setup and repair.

Moderators: kiwigeo, Jeremy D

User avatar
Trevor Gore
Blackwood
Posts: 1605
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:11 pm

Re: Feedback please.

Post by Trevor Gore » Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:22 pm

Here's the second version of the neck joint, with the vestigial heel. It's a small guitar too, but I gave her 20 frets on a 650mm scale length. Currently running as a 100/190Hz guitar, but I'm still messing with that.
Small body_2.jpg
Small body_2.jpg (89.73 KiB) Viewed 19212 times

User avatar
DarwinStrings
Blackwood
Posts: 1877
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:27 pm
Location: Darwin

Re: Feedback please.

Post by DarwinStrings » Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:49 pm

Nice and who would know the heel is a fraud. Not sure if you caught the other thread but this one is a none live back with tornavoz at 89/191hz so far. I'm very impressed with the sound and I have never played a guitar that tunes so well, can't wait for the next with a live back but am waiting till I check bridge rotation on this one before I brace the top on the next. Just from a guess so far I have not got much bridge rotation which looks good for the next as I will be able to drop brace size. By the way Trevor I grabbed some Silver ash for the secondaries (have bent enough spruce for 4 sets of mains), my mate had both coloured Silver Ash and I grabbed the lighter coloured one. It dynamically tested at 1.89E +10 at 660kg per cube M so I figured it was the right species. It still didn't smell real nice through the saw though.

I am with you there Markus.

Jim
Life is good when you are amongst the wood.
Jim Schofield

User avatar
Kim
Admin
Posts: 4376
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:32 pm
Location: South of Perth WA

Re: Feedback please.

Post by Kim » Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:17 pm

The Maton F10 and F11 form the 1970's had a heelless neck. Some here may recall the F11 rebuild I posted on this forum a couple of years back. In my opinion their original design and construction method for the F10, a nylon stringed student grade classical, produced a guitar the structural integrity of a wet noodle. For Maton to have then taken the exact 'same' guitar, only changing the headstock to fit steel string tuners and then release it as a 'folk' guitar, was plain irresponsible.

But, with a few mods such as beefing up the solid linings and the UTB, the design can work and work 'very' well. My intent when taking on that box of bit that was to become the Matey F1-11 Pig had been to make a nice comfy 'verandah' guitar with the iconic aussie branding still in tact. The type of guitar your not afraid to pass around to the yodellers along with the beers on one of those sunny afternoons.

I'm please to say that it fits that bill just beautifully. The combination of the heeless neck and pushing and extra fret out of the top so she now 13 to the body seems to appeal to everyone who plays it, especially those from an electric background who find the access to the upper frets without a cutaway to be a complete revelation. After a few years and a 30min neck reset with two internal bolts and a shim, its settled in now and sound just fine. In fact once the matey comes out to play she goes around and around leaving the rest in cases they arrived in.

Go for it Jim, for a small bodied comfy player a heelless neck design just can't be beat IMO.

Cheers

Kim

User avatar
Trevor Gore
Blackwood
Posts: 1605
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:11 pm

Re: Feedback please.

Post by Trevor Gore » Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:33 pm

trevtheshed wrote:Here's the second version of the neck joint, with the vestigial heel.
I should have mentioned, for those wondering what the point is, of a heelless guitar with a heel, it's that the neck shaft on this one is continuous, full width and full depth, up past the 18th fret, so there is zero possibility of fret board hump and all the other palarva you get with with fret boards over the upper bout. Plus you can get the neck off in a fraction of a minute longer than it takes to drop the string tension. So just a variation on Leo's design which has stood the test of time so well.

User avatar
peter.coombe
Blackwood
Posts: 723
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:52 pm
Location: Bega, NSW
Contact:

Re: Feedback please.

Post by peter.coombe » Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:44 am

Ok, after Trevor's post I will havwe to withdraw my comment. The reason I thought it was likely to fail is that there is no leverage for the forces on the neck, but if you add leverage some other way then it should be fine.

Peter
Peter Coombe - mandolin, mandola and guitar maker
http://www.petercoombe.com

User avatar
DarwinStrings
Blackwood
Posts: 1877
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:27 pm
Location: Darwin

Re: Feedback please.

Post by DarwinStrings » Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:04 am

peter.coombe wrote:I would avoid. Looks designed to fail to me.

Peter
peter.coombe wrote:Ok, after Trevor's post I will havwe to withdraw my comment. The reason I thought it was likely to fail is that there is no leverage for the forces on the neck, but if you add leverage some other way then it should be fine.

Peter
Thanks Peter, thanks because your comments illustrate why it is so difficult to make changes. People make judgment calls without being informed and if someone like you who is very experienced in the game makes those judgments what could I hope to expect from the average punter.

Maybe if I can't convince people then I will have to take them through Trevor and Gerard's book then point out the section where he points out the benefits and the prejudices of this type of neck but then you know Trevor and trust his reputation Peter, others won't know him from a bar of soap.

Still a uphill road is always the most satisfying as you get to see the view from the top once you arrive.

Jim.
Life is good when you are amongst the wood.
Jim Schofield

User avatar
DarwinStrings
Blackwood
Posts: 1877
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:27 pm
Location: Darwin

Re: Feedback please.

Post by DarwinStrings » Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:14 am

trevtheshed wrote: so there is zero possibility of fret board hump
Fender electrics can still get a bit of a hump, I have seen them do a little bend at the 15th but I guess that that has a bit to do with the compressive nature of their truss rods as well as maybe the use of Maple and that full length dual action rods will help that issue.

Jim
Life is good when you are amongst the wood.
Jim Schofield

nnickusa
Blackwood
Posts: 902
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 4:07 pm
Location: Brunswick Heads, NSW

Re: Feedback please.

Post by nnickusa » Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:23 pm

I like the whole concept, Jim. The original, without the vestigal heel reminds me of an old EKO I had for a while. Played really well, actually.

Now, from a more practical perspective, I tend to agree with most of the others, that it would be a tough sell to the average Joe, simply because it looks different. Keep in mind that there are two very distinct camps in the electric world. Those that accept that a bolt-on neck can sound fine, and those that swear that without a set-neck it's nor really a guitar. I also believe that most guitar shop customers and salesman have n o idea if the acoustic they're looking at is bolton or dove3tail, and won't find out til it needs a neck re-set...

So, you are left with the option of having to educate the buyer(s), assuming they will allow that(not a given), or assuming that the buyers are forward-thinking(also unlikely)...

Next onto the vestigal heel. Personally, I'd forego it. Practically, it may be a more marketable concept. It looks good, and will probably "fool" the casual observer into missing the neck joint completely. At that point, the entire purpose of the neck construction is moot.

In the event that I had any likelihood of selling more than one or two guitars annually, I'd put it up as an option, but be willing to back off the idea were the buyer hesitant......Kind of...."got this great new technique for the neck joint---been approved by NASA for the singing astronaut---oh not interested? dovetail or bolton????

Personally, I like it and now I have even more to think about....Thanks heaps(dripping with sarcasm :lol: :lol: :lol: )
I wish I was half the man my dog thinks I am....

Cheers,
Nick

https://www.facebook.com/pages/DMI-hand ... 744?ref=hl

jeffhigh
Blackwood
Posts: 1536
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 5:50 am
Location: Caves Beach, NSW
Contact:

Re: Feedback please.

Post by jeffhigh » Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:33 pm

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Turn the bloody amp down!

User avatar
DarwinStrings
Blackwood
Posts: 1877
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:27 pm
Location: Darwin

Re: Feedback please.

Post by DarwinStrings » Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:59 pm

Don't look at me Jeff, I haven't even tried to plug this in yet, it is Stu that's making all the noise trying to fix that amp.

Jim
Life is good when you are amongst the wood.
Jim Schofield

jeffhigh
Blackwood
Posts: 1536
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 5:50 am
Location: Caves Beach, NSW
Contact:

Re: Feedback please.

Post by jeffhigh » Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:02 pm

You asked for Feedback

User avatar
DarwinStrings
Blackwood
Posts: 1877
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:27 pm
Location: Darwin

Re: Feedback please.

Post by DarwinStrings » Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:07 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Jim
Life is good when you are amongst the wood.
Jim Schofield

User avatar
Kim
Admin
Posts: 4376
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:32 pm
Location: South of Perth WA

Re: Feedback please.

Post by Kim » Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:44 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol:

User avatar
Craig
Admin
Posts: 1090
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:08 am
Location: N.S.W. in the bush

Re: Feedback please.

Post by Craig » Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:45 pm

G'day Jim ,
Looks like I'm going against the flow of most here , but I like the design a lot. Reminds me of the precision engineering of a gunsmith . .I'm guessing the yaw alignment wouldn't be any more time consuming than a conventional heeled neck.
I remember the old Eko Guitars too Nick (no neck heel ) and agree that their necks always played well . Shame they had a very thick soundboard finish.
I've always liked the playability of an acoustic without a heel . they just feel good and of course, give easier access to the upper frets . To hell with the traditionalists Jim , forget the heel . I reckon you're on to a good design here. I could see it being a real winner for a travel guitar with a detachable neck . I can also see this design easily adapted for a tilt neck. Very handy for consistent string action regardless of humidity and just the thing for drop tunings etc.
If the neck joint design doesn't require a heel, why include it ? That Vestigial neck has me a little puzzled.
Great work Jim .I'm encouraging you to "stick to your guns " with this design ( pun intended ! ) :D
Craig Lawrence

User avatar
needsmorecowbel
Blackwood
Posts: 974
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:48 pm
Location: Melbourne

Re: Feedback please.

Post by needsmorecowbel » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:49 am

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. Laugh while you can guys...But I'll be the one laughing when the WALL OF TONE causes minor breathlessness...

Back to the topic at hand, Jim, I'd have to say while it looks 'different' if it sounds good then there's no reason you can't be proud of it and flaunt it for what it is. You never know, someone might just really dig the sound and buy it (at this late point in the threat it kind of feels like this guitar is being talked about as if it is Uncle Fester with a more defined neck). It looks like a very well executed guitar and if it sounds as good as you say it sounds then I wouldn't really worry about it. Just recline, cold beer in hand and let the guitar prove its value. Do you have any sound clips?

Stu

User avatar
needsmorecowbel
Blackwood
Posts: 974
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:48 pm
Location: Melbourne

Re: Feedback please.

Post by needsmorecowbel » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:54 am

Image

Is there a way to stop myself posting amazingly large images on imgur?. I've been here since 2009 and I'm acting as though I'm computer illiterate...

User avatar
charangohabsburg
Blackwood
Posts: 1818
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:25 am
Location: Switzerland

Re: Feedback please.

Post by charangohabsburg » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:34 am

needsmorecowbel wrote:Is there a way to stop myself posting amazingly large images on imgur?.
www.google.com/search?q=image+resize
Markus

To be stupid is like to be dead. Oneself will not be aware of it.
It's only the others who suffer.

User avatar
n~dl
Myrtle
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:04 am
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Feedback please.

Post by n~dl » Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:10 am

Yeah, Trevor seems pretty on the mark IMO. It's biggest sin is looking a bit naked. The whole hardware vs. "real" joints is such a silly tripping point in a lot of bad Gibson vs. Fender arguments I've had to suffer through.
-Nate L

User avatar
DarwinStrings
Blackwood
Posts: 1877
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:27 pm
Location: Darwin

Re: Feedback please.

Post by DarwinStrings » Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:37 am

I have to say the go for it attitudes from Kim, Craig and Nick are what I like to hear as that is the attitude I approached it with. I mulled it over quite a bit and certainly considered the Faux heel like Trevor built. The couple of things about the faux one I didn't like were, one, that the side face of the heel has to run vertical just for a bit till you get past the bottom of the joint and the heels I like most taper in from just under the fret board. Then the fact that you cant get the heel cap level with the back without some sort of gap so you either have the gap or a step to the heel cap, minor details really cause as you can see Trevor's looks very good.

Good point Nate though if we all got around naked clothes would look weird (you may get locked up for wearing them) and I would spent so much more time just taking long walks in public places wearing dark glasses that I would have no time for guitar making.

Jim
Life is good when you are amongst the wood.
Jim Schofield

User avatar
DarwinStrings
Blackwood
Posts: 1877
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:27 pm
Location: Darwin

Re: Feedback please.

Post by DarwinStrings » Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:52 am

Hey Stu, once you re-size the image try posting them direct to the forum, that way they won't get lost in the future.

Jim
Life is good when you are amongst the wood.
Jim Schofield

User avatar
n~dl
Myrtle
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:04 am
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Feedback please.

Post by n~dl » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:21 am

DarwinStrings wrote:Hey Stu, once you re-size the image try posting them direct to the forum, that way they won't get lost in the future.

Jim
All we need is a rhythm section and we'll have our new sci-fi/acid band, LOST IN THE FUTURE.
-Nate L

User avatar
needsmorecowbel
Blackwood
Posts: 974
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:48 pm
Location: Melbourne

Re: Feedback please.

Post by needsmorecowbel » Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:11 pm

Cheers for the tip guys

User avatar
Trevor Gore
Blackwood
Posts: 1605
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:11 pm

Re: Feedback please.

Post by Trevor Gore » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:09 pm

...and here's the Mk 1 version of the heelless neck. Sounds great, plays great, but the fact that I still have it at half my normal prices makes the point, I think.
Heelless_1a.jpg
Heelless_1a.jpg (71.6 KiB) Viewed 19007 times
Heelless_1b.jpg
Heelless_1b.jpg (67.42 KiB) Viewed 19007 times
It's my neo body shape (about 00 size), Engelmann/EIR, maple binding, herringbone purfling, figured QLD maple neck, SEA rosewood fretboard. Offers, anyone?!! (The other one was a classical BTW, which may not have been clear).

Kev3
Blackwood
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:35 pm
Location: Townsville, Queensland

Re: Feedback please.

Post by Kev3 » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:22 pm

Dunno Trevor, guess I'd take it off your hands for postage. More of a charity thing really, must be tough having such an ugly duckling taking up room. :wink:

For what it's worth in this discussion Jim. I'd say, if you like it, keep at it. Structurally it sounds like it'd work - after that its down to you if instant appeal is what is driving this. I have to admit, the first time I saw a square neck slide guitar it looked so wrong given the instant pattern recognition I mentally associate with a guitar shape. Now I like 'em almost as much as because they don't fit the standard profile and personally I think this would have the same appeal to me. ...... not so sure that's the best recommendation for pushing forward though :D
...............
Kevin

User avatar
P Bill
Blackwood
Posts: 521
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:31 am
Location: Cedar Vale, Qld Australia

Re: Feedback please.

Post by P Bill » Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:50 am

On another forum a new flat top violin was shown. He made 4 or 5 with different ff's, over a period of months, and they started to grow on me. I think it's just adjusting what we expect to see.
"Were you drying your nails or waving me good bye?" Tom Waits

Bill

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 127 guests