Celery top pine bracing?

jeffhigh · Post by **jeffhigh** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:39 pm

Anyone used this?
I got a couple of nice sticks a few weeks ago, nicely quartered, tight growth rings.
Wondering if I should cut it up for brace stock/
Jeff

Paul B · Post by **Paul B** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:51 pm

Why not?

I'd give it a go for sure.

Rick Turner · Post by **Rick Turner** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:35 pm

The real question is not "why not?", but "why?" Does it have stiffness to weight characteristics similar to or better than, for instance, Sitka spruce?

Believe me, I understand the desire to use local timbers, but you need to know the properties of each wood in relationship to the job you want them to accomplish, and that is more important than "It's local timber..."

Both steel string and gut/nylon string guitars developed into their respective "golden eras" on imported timbers, whether that was Brazilaian rosewood and German spruce for the Spanish classical guitar or BZ and the relatively local Adirondack spruce for steel string guitars. But no amount of wishing and hoping will make a not-appropriate, but emotionally desirable timber right for guitar building.

kiwigeo · Post by **kiwigeo** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:57 pm

From The Aussie Tonewoods Forum:

"One of the best known of Tasmania's native conifers. Medium-sized, commonly 20-30m tall and .5-.9m in diameter. The stem is usually well-formed even when growing on very poor soils. Lower branches are usually horizontal and occur in whorls. Bark is dark grey or reddish brown with numerous bark pores which give it a knobbly appearance, often deeply furrowed in older trees. Grows very slowly, and trees with a diameter of .6m are commonly up to 400 years old. The oldest known trees are about 800 years old.

The timber is a pale straw colour when freshly cut and darkens to a pleasing gold with age. It is hard, strong and dense (650kg/m at 12% moisture content) and has no odour or taste. Relatively heavy for a pine. It is durable in contact with the ground if the sapwood is removed. It has good dimensional stability in cross section but can shrink along its length upon drying. "

jeffhigh · Post by **jeffhigh** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:24 pm

I figure that I would have to reduce the bracing width to use the denser(but stronger and stiffer) timber.
Just wondering if anyone else has tried it before. I think I have heard of it being used for soundboards somewhere.
Jeff

Kim · Post by **Kim** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:46 pm

Rick's has a very good point, why spend $100 on a great guitar top and then use a brace wood that is anything less than the very best you can get. Considering the importance of the role it must play, good bracewood is still relatively cheap. In order to justify using an alternative, you really would need to be convinced that it would have more going for it than the spruces.

On that note I am not writing off celery top. But, it would need to measure up to scrutiny, being straight grained and strong is a start but how reflective is it, how stiff in comparison to Adi etc? I do know that Bunya pine is very promising alternative brace wood and is worthy of very close examination by us antipodeans. Tim has done a little informal testing and whilst bunya is a little heavier than Adirondack, it is proportionally stiffer and we already know it makes a very good guitar top.

At the very least, given the cost of shipping and what not, Bunya, and maybe even Celery Top could help us economise. For instance if Bunya proved just slightly less desirable than Adi but still very good, then it could be used to brace the back and also everything forward of the soundhole excepting the X of course.

That is one of the great things about this craft in AU, there is still, in 2008, soooo much to explore.

Cheers

Kim

kiwigeo · Post by **kiwigeo** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:02 pm

Note the comment on longtitudinal shrinkage in my post above.

James Mc · Post by **James Mc** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:21 pm

Jeffrey Yongâ€™s Monkey Pod guitar with a Monkey Pod top was adjudged the finest sounding instrument at one of the GAL conference. Not exactly a traditional tonewood for bodies let alone tops. The stuff sounds like damp particle board to tap and if you were looking at the timber properties of it to assess its likelihood as a potential tonewood, you would probably just keep looking. So I guess the only way you will ever know for sure with any timber is to try it, then check to see if it is still holding up in fifty years or so.

I do have one concern with Celery Top, many old boats that had CTP plank decking have had it replaced over the years because it was too reactive to humidity. The constant expansion and contraction caused problems like splitting of edging timbers and flogging out of the holes around deck nails/screws. Iâ€™m unclear how much of an issue this would be on a guitar if it was only bracing, but I don't think I'd like to find out the hard way.

TimS · Post by **TimS** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:50 am

There are many woods that are probably suitable for a range of guitar components. The key thing as I see it is TIME! There are benefits to made from testing the full range of tonewoods from aesthetic, financial and constructional points of view. With a standard measure or datum point you could compare a range of tonewoods and over time a trend would occur, be it positive or negative.

If you need a sample of Celery Top Pine to work with let me know.

regards

Tim

Rick Turner · Post by **Rick Turner** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:06 am

For tops and for bracing, the basic requirement is for superior stiffness to weight to density. This adds up to low damping, too. Then you also want material that has low shrinkage, especially with braces that are to be glued across the grain of the top or back, so relatively high longitudinal shrinkage is an undesirable feature.

Density in and of itself is not indicative of a decent tone wood.

Look at the characteristics of the timbers that have "risen to the top", so to speak. There are very good reasons for the spruces, cedar, and redwood having all come to the forefront as top tone woods for guitars and in the case of the spruces for violin family instruments.

Of course you can try something different, but if guitar-like tone is your goal, you can't go too far astray from the physical and sonic qualities of the traditionally chosen woods.

The one Aussie timber I've seen that impresses me the most as far as a top and bracing wood goes is King Billy pine. The samples I've seen, felt, and tapped were very much like Engelmann spruce. The bunya tops I've seen on some Cole Clark guitars did not look salable to me. They were just too weird and looked for all the world like Formica.

Kim · Post by **Kim** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:23 am

Rick Turner wrote:The bunya tops I've seen on some Cole Clark guitars did not look salable to me. They were just too weird and looked for all the world like Formica.

That's a bit harsh Rick, but I guess if your looking at a piece of Bunya trying to make it into spruce you could get that impression. However Araucaria bidwillii is not spruce or even pine and regardless of how you think it looks, it does make a very fine soundboard. Evidence of that can easily be seen in the fact that there are many happy players out there who walked into a guitar shop with cash and a choice between creamy white, fine grained spruce, and dirty old Bunya and voted with their wallet for the later.

Back to topic however, I did note the comment about CTP having longitudinal shrinkage when DRYING, but I did not see anything to indicate there was an issue once it had seasoned out, and regardless of ones opinion of how Bunya looks, this should not be give too much consideration when assessing it's use for bracing stock.

Cheers

Kim

jeffhigh · Post by **jeffhigh** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:37 am

I may just cut some up and try it for back bracing first.
Got it cheap

Rick Turner · Post by **Rick Turner** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:41 am

Yeah, it's a harsh assessment, but it's based upon what I know of the American guitar buying taste from having worked in retail environments for quite a few years. Unfortunately, too many guitar buyers listen with their eyeballs, not their ears...

I've managed to use some very streaky looking cedar for tops and get away with it, but that's on semi-hollow acoustic-electrics. Colin Hay, for instance, picked out a very high contrast top for a guitar of mine; it has major dark stripes in it, and I like it, and so does he, but I'm not sure I'd use something like that for a full acoustic top unless it was to be painted black.

I'll have to try out some bunya for the mandolins we build in my course at some point. My students seem to be very open to alternative timbers. I'll be building one with Tassie oak back and sides with a cedar top. Maybe next time I'll substitute bunya for the cedar.

Bob Connor · Post by **Bob Connor** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:46 am

I've seen some of the Bunya that goes on to production guitars here and and a lot of them did look like crap.

However, Joe Gallacher was showing me some that he had got hold of and it looked like much higher quality and had nice tap tones.

I'm reserving judgement until I can get my hands on some and build with it.

On the Celery top, why don't you square up some stock to the same dimensions as any spruce you have on hand and do some stiffness to weight comparisons. If you don't have a dial indicator pinch your missus' kitchen scales and make a simple deflection tester then weigh them.

Bob

Bob Connor · Post by **Bob Connor** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:56 am

Rick Turner wrote: Maybe next time I'll substitute bunya for the cedar.

I reckon you'll get a better mando out of King Billy.

The Bunya guitars I've played were very, very fundamental in tone. Bugger all overtones at all in fact. So lots of seperation between notes. Possibly good for a fingerstyle guitarist who likes that really dry sort of sound.

Although it varies, KB pine is not terribly strong along the grain and in my opinion is more suitable for smaller guitars or mando's.

Won't be an F5 but it'll be a sweet sounding instrument more suited to Celtic type playing than Bluegrass.

Bob

Rick Turner · Post by **Rick Turner** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:47 pm

That sounds just right. The mandos we build in my class are kind of "Army/Navy" style...flat top, flat back and more old-timey sounding than carved instruments. King Billy would be perfect for them, I expect. I banged on a nice plank of it down at boat-builder/folk singer Ned Trewartha's last time I was over, and it really had what I go for in a top wood. Nice clear ring with nice frequency content.

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:50 pm

Rick Turner wrote:The bunya tops I've seen on some Cole Clark guitars did not look salable to me. They were just too weird and looked for all the world like Formica.

Perhaps that's where the Australian and US markets differ. I don't have a lot of doubt that this may be the case in the US but my experience is that there is a burgeoning market within Australia driven by a thriving roots music scene where the customer is after instruments that are interesting and 'natural' in appearance.

They don't like high gloss finishes, flashy inlays, fancy rosettes or traditional bindings. If you show them two bits of timber: one that is plain in appearance that'd go down well on a traditional style guitar and one with what'd traditionally be called cosmetic imperfections/blemishes, they'll choose the latter. I've lost many a "battle" (:P) with customers who want a satin finish even though I insist that gloss will bring out the figuring etc. in the wood better. It's a fairly unique market in terms of traditional lutherie, but not a small one by any means, driven by the popularity of the likes of Ben Harper, John Butler and a whole host of other musicians.

Rick Turner · Post by **Rick Turner** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:35 pm

Well, that's good news, then. I've long advocated and used alternative timbers here in the US, and I use quite a bit of local and fairly closely sourced wood like sycamore and California grown walnut. But with tops and bracing for acoustics, I'm more concerned with tone, and what I've read here doesn't make me want to go building with a bunya top.

I do a lot of satin finishing here, and I combine satin back, sides, and neck with a gloss top on many of my Renaissance acoustic-electrics. I do think that in general, a gloss top bumps up the perceived value of an instrument in a store.

There is another aspect to this, too. We as small shop builders really dare not try to compete in the low end of the guitar market. Our potential customers tend to want up-scale timbers and up-scale work. Sometimes using "iffy" and non-traditional woods can work against us and cheapen the appearance of what we build. Given that a huge proportion of the cost of a luthier-built guitar is in labor, it doesn't make much economic sense to try to save a very few bucks of the sale on less than pretty decent wood.

TimS · Post by **TimS** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:42 pm

"American guitar buying taste"
I think the tenor of this topic started off as a purely empirical adventure into the merits of potential tonewoods. "American guitar buying taste" (as Rick so eliquently threw into the mix), whilst being a measure of market choice in America is an entirely separate topic specificially for those who have commercial interests in the US. The existence of this forum is clear evidence that there is a another world of lutherie and guitar players beyond the shores of America.
However if we were to consider the interface between the aesthetic and tonal qualities of a range of tonewoods and suggest that a pleasant appearing wood should be the deteminer of what one should buy, then one can only wonder at the desperation that some luthiers will go to buy pieces of wood with tar holes, wide grain, difficult grain, formica like patterns, borer holes and staining to secure that dalbergian or adirondack sound. Logic demands that one should consider all tonewoods in the same light, that is the quest for TONE. To that end I have gradually being identifying any Australian tonewoods that might offer some potential. Bling without tone doesn't cut the ice for a serious buyer.

regards

Tim

Rick Turner · Post by **Rick Turner** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:05 pm

Thank you, Tim!

The key here is to understand just why the "traditional" timbers became that, and then to determine whether alternative timbers have appropriately similar characteristics...that is, if you're looking to build instruments that sound like guitars... Many of the characteristics attributed to "tone woods" are indeed quantifiable. Stiffness to weight, density, damping factor and it's opposite, "resonance", stability through climate changes, ease of bending, ease of gluing, crack resistance, etc... These are things that can be measured or otherwise described.

matthew · Post by **matthew** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:50 pm

Any "tone-wood" on its own is just a stick of wood.

Its very largely what you do with it that determines whether it will produce a tone, and what sort of tone that will be.

A beautiful piece of lutz isn't guaranteed to make a wonderful instrument just because it is lutz, (although it might look right!) And I venture that a good maker probably *could* make a nice sounding instrument from radiata pine if that's all there was available.

Why do we lump everything into one classification, the mysterious "tone-woods"?

Would we not be better served by functional descriptors such as "bracewoods", "topwoods", "bending woods", "decorative woods", "bridge woods" etc?????

kiwigeo · Post by **kiwigeo** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:52 pm

matthew wrote:
A beautiful piece of lutz isn't guaranteed to make a wonderful instrument just because it is lutz, (although it might look right!) And I venture that a good maker probably *could* make a nice sounding instrument from radiata pine if that's all there was available.

Matthew, Ive got a pile of Shane's Lutz in my shop and Ive got to say the stuff in its raw form is something special...it rings like a Chinese Gong. Next time youre through Adelaide pop in and i'll show you what Im talking about.

Radiata Pine (Pinus Crapiata).......Ive just spent $4000 felling 5 of the things on my front verge and am looking forward to sending them up my chimney.

Cheers Martin

matthew · Post by **matthew** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:41 pm

I think it is rubbish wood, too ... but just to play devil's advocate ... do you know anyone who has made a radiata pine guitar? If not, how do you KNOW it can't be used successfully?

I have just received a small sample of quartered celerytop from Tim and I'm running it through its paces. First impressions ... very stiff along the grain (as stiff as a similar sized strip of tassy oak!) but very flexible across the grain.
Shrink test, soak test, bend test, snap test etc ... I'll let you know what I find out ... although it won't tell me whether or not it will work ...

Rick Turner · Post by **Rick Turner** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:30 am

Sorry, but this idea that a brilliant maker can make a good guitar out of any piece of crap wood is just wrong. That's LED kicking in.

LED = Luthiers Ego Disease

There are very specific qualities that make for good "tone woods", and yes, there are different requirements for different parts of a guitar, but all you have to do is to look at the timbers that have been used most commonly, study their specific characteristics, and then you'll be on the right path to understanding what distinguishes "tone wood" from particle board. If you don't want to take the time to learn this stuff and prefer to think that it's all the builder and materials mean nothing, then by all means build your guitars and try to convince folks that they are real musical instruments. Good timber + good design + good craftsmanship = a good guitar. Take any one of those elements away, and you have a GLO, not a guitar.

GLO = Guitar Like Object

matthew · Post by **matthew** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:15 am

Dunno about the USA, but our quarantine regulations have so far managed to keep Luthier's Ego Disease out of this country. I hope it stays that way.

If you don't want to take the time to learn this stuff and prefer to think that it's all the builder and materials mean nothing ...

Is that what I wrote? If not, why are you getting all worked up about it?

I wrote: "... I venture that a good maker probably *could* make a nice sounding instrument from radiata pine, if that's all there was available."

I have ample evidence for this, at least in the world of double basses (that counts, doesn't it??) there are MANY master-grade instruments made with what some luthiers today would class as third-rate woods; slab cut tops, plain pine & poplar backs, multi-piece backs, tops with knots etc. These are master-grade instruments, beautifully crafted, with superb tone fetching $80,000-$200,000 and upwards. They were made by luthiers from, it seems, whatever wood was available at the time. They have been expertly graduated to bring out the best and have stood the test of time.

At the other end of the scale are instruments made oin CNC machines in china from the most beautiful classic tonewoods grown in the himalayas, yet these instruments never develop their tone and often fall apart within a few years.

Becaue you are open-minded about such things, you are going to build a mandolin for the tassies with some tassie oak. This is not a classic tonewood, and many luthiers with no experience with it might diss it as a crap eucalptus wood. But you know better, don't you, because you've used it before, yeah? Or because someone else has tried it before and found that it works?

Where is your evidence that radiata pine cannot be used to make a nice instrument? Yes you have a theory based, presumably, on some experience and study of that wood. Yeah it is fast growing, full of knots, wide grain, warps like mad. But my point is, until you actually try it, you won't actually know for sure. It might have just the damping characteristics that go beautifully with that nice Lutz top.

By the way, what is a "real musical instrument"? Is that something on which you have a patent?

have a look at this crap wood held together with screws. Is this a real musical instrument?? Tell me whether you think that it will work.

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