"Just do it" vs "Intellectualising"

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matthew
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"Just do it" vs "Intellectualising"

Post by matthew » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:59 pm

(Hopefully taking this discussion OUT of the adjustable neck thread.)

From a purely practical standpoint, only a pro builder is going to have the resources to "just do it" and make lots of guitars and repair lots of guitars and get that valuable hands-on experience.

For the rest of us - consider me making basses in my spare time, i'm lucky to make one bass a year, each one taking about 500 hours - there's NO WAY I can build enough fast enough to get that experience from "just doing it".

I need to discuss things, to toss ideas around, to think deeply before putting gouge into the $500 plank that will be my top. My involvement in forums has, in my estimation, already saved me a LOT of time and money. And a fair amount of that has been intellectualising, learning from others' experiences and discussing my own hunches.

I'm fully aware of the experience that only making dozens of instruments will give me. Problem is, I just can't afford to make dozens of mistakes. I'm 47 years young, but at the rate I'm going I will be nearly 60 by the time I have a dozen basses made.

In my case, with a set of tuners costing $300, a set of strings another $250, the wood, fingerboard, bridge blanks, pickups, endpin etc. that's one expensive hobby, even if I put in my time for free.

Sure, I will get better along the way. But I can't afford too many duds or bad decisions, and I guess most small turnover makers are in a similar position.
Last edited by matthew on Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Craig
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Post by Craig » Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:39 pm

You said that very well Matthew and put it better than I could myself. I think most of us are in the same boat.

I believe our 'Adjustable neck ' thread to now be back on track also , so that's a bloody good thing.

Cheers mate , Craig

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Post by Kim » Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:48 pm

I guess like most things the ideal is to strike a balance, to get the ying and yang right, to think about it until you think you have a good workable model in your head and then to build one and finesse it from there. Just jump in without enough thought an you will do a lot of time and material for sweet FA.

On the other hand, if you intellectualise for too long, trying to cover every possible detail before you ever commit blade to wood, you run the real risk of discovering very early in actual construction that very thing you over looked, that small assumption you made early in the thought process that was wrong is now preventing you from following the grand plan. Once again all those hours of thought worth sweet FA.

Sit back, think about it, mull it over for a while, pull a cone or two, have a beer, make a sandwich, wonder where the frig you left the keys to the shed, wonder why you were looking for the keys to the shed, watch a bit of telli, Bill and Ben Flower Pot Men is always good for a laugh, remember why you wanted to go to the shed and go out and ...why where we go'in out the shed again??? blub,blub,blub.....Oh man...never mind ..Welcome my son, welcooooome toooooo the machiiiine. Where have ya beeen it's alright we told you where you beee,eeee,eeeen 8)

P.S for the record, I DID inhale as hard and often as I could :lol: :lol: :lol: But I'm actually a good boy now days, having kids can do that to a guy ya know :D


Cheers

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matthew
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Post by matthew » Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:57 pm

You're lucky to have snowcone machine in your shed. Can you make yellow snow?

stay on topic

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Kim
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Post by Kim » Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:14 pm

matthew wrote:
stay on topic
:shock: :oops: :wink:

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Post by Allen » Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:09 pm

I KNOW THE ANSWER TO THIS ONE!!!!!

Le-Fridge is in the shed. :lol:

Back on topic. I totally agree with where you're at Matthew. That's a stinking lot of money in material to not have a well laid plan. On the other hand, I agree with Rick about just getting on a doing it. The big difference being, doing it in the right circumstances.

For example. I've managed to find a piece of New Guinea Rose wood that cost me nothing. I made up a couple of necks with it for my size 5 project. I'm going to try the adjustable neck on this guitar, so the neck and neck block are going to be built first. Try to get everything looking like it's good to go before the neck block gets glued to the sides. If I stuff up, I've always got the other neck. Hasn't cost me anything but time, and I'll have learnt something.
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Post by Dominic » Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:20 pm

In the end, we are all different people who have different approaches to life and guitar building. I have a great job that I love and in which I can make far more money than I ever could making guitars. I am a risk taker and will make mistakes but try very hard through thinking and reading and making up my own mind to make my learning curve as steep as possible. I prefer not to make mistakes but it is not the end of the world. And they actually drive me, I wouldn't miss that part for anything. For me thinking about mistakes forms the basis of better ideas.


Because of all these things, my end point, my goal, may be very different to that of a pro-builder or someone semi-reliant on it for income. But if followed a pro builder's advice wholly would I not end up building copies of that persons guitars?

While I did not participate in the neck thread, I think it has value even if it never got built. The process of working together has value. The fact that it went along for so long with such lively and creative discussion is a testament to that.

What's the point of all this, the message?

We are all different and come at this for our own reasons. Do it, think about, whatever you want, just be nice about it.

"There are no right or wrong ways of doing anything in life, there are only right or wrong people."

Dom

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Post by matthew » Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:47 pm

Kim wrote:
:shock: :oops: :wink:
yep. I forgot to wink too :wink:

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Post by Dave White » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:12 pm

"cogit ergo sum" - I think therfore I am. I love the way you Aussies have added just one extra letter to make it "I drink therefore I am" :D

Thinking is good but thinking and doing is better - it brings that great force of nature "learning and feedback loops" into play. Make prototypes of key parts with cheap wood/offcuts, and then make prototype instruments from cheap wood too. You can get fabulous sounding - but plain - tonewoods reasonably cheaply and you don't have to do fancy binding/inlays on prototypes or worry to much about finish looking great. Plus all the really expensive bits like tuners and cf buttress braces are re-cyclable. Plus you can re-build your prototypes as you learn and improve rather building whole new instrument. Some of these instruments you are going to have to keep around for a long time to properly observe the long term performance - particularly on high stress areas like adjustable necks.

Think - build/test - observe - evaluate - re-design -rebuild etc etc

Matthew - I feel for you on this one. Your time investment is huge, and I don't know enough about double basses to know how easily/cheaply it would be to "knock together" cheap and cheerful versions to test ideas.
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Post by matthew » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:43 pm

well, there's always plywood as a shortcut, but there's always the big carving job on the front, and I suppose I could just "rough out" a scroll on the bandsaw, but what would I learn from that? and if I'm going to carve a scroll (many hours' work there!!) it might as well be a good one on a neck that works.

And if the top turns out a beauty, and the scroll is a perfectly balanced masterpiece, I'm gonna kick myself for using bracing ply on the sides, am I not?

EVERY instrument I make will be worth owning. I will make NO duds.

BTW, not meaning to be morose or anything, but what happens when I die? Do I go to heaven? No i don't believe that. So what's the point of living? What lies after death? Whatever I leave here on this Earth, that's what. And my instruments are going to be part of that, as well as my kids and all the good and bad things I ever did ... hopefully all that will be a lasting legacy. I can't avoid thinking it about it sometimes, because I get asked by people who think I should be thinking about heaven and hell. I don't, but if you really press me, it all comes back to what I'm doing right now.

Gosh ... where did all THAT come from??

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Post by kiwigeo » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:03 pm

Dave White wrote:"cogit ergo sum" - I think theerfore I am. I love the way you Aussies have added just one extra letter to make it "I drink therefore I am" :D
Um... it should actually be "cogit ergo sumathatime".....I drink therefore I am....some of the time.

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Post by Craig » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:49 pm

I think my very good mate Paul said it well in the neck thread , in that you have to have a plan , but at the end of the day ,the only fair trial is to make it.

When I'm confident I have all bases covered , I'll do just that.

Cheers guys , Craig

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Post by Paul B » Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:59 pm

matthew wrote: BTW, not meaning to be morose or anything, but what happens when I die? Do I go to heaven? No i don't believe that. So what's the point of living? What lies after death? Whatever I leave here on this Earth, that's what. And my instruments are going to be part of that, as well as my kids and all the good and bad things I ever did ... hopefully all that will be a lasting legacy. I can't avoid thinking it about it sometimes, because I get asked by people who think I should be thinking about heaven and hell. I don't, but if you really press me, it all comes back to what I'm doing right now.
Right on man.

Build the best instruments you can and leave them behind.

Better legacy than most people will leave behind. Most people spend their lives watching daytime telly (or the same brand of crap, at night). We're ahead of the game, by far.

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Post by Hesh1956 » Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:44 pm

When I was in my 20's the first professional job that I ever had was with a small corporation that had a big idea......

The idea was to build the world's most powerful laser and shoot it at a tiny glass bead that was small enough to sit on the head of a pin. The glass pellet was filled with deuterium and tritium.

The desired result was to create the world's first controlled laser fusion reaction and produce more energy then it took to shoot the laser. On a big picture scale the goal was to create energy from sea water where tritium can be made from and relieve the world's dependency on oil...........

A lofty goal......

The corporation sold off many of it's profitable businesses to self-fund this research and build a test facility that was capable of being the home for recreating the reaction that is occurring in our sun and in essence was a miniature hydrogen bomb.

The target chamber had 20 foot thick steel and concrete walls, floor, and ceiling and the door to the target chamber was over 10 feet thick of steel and on rail road track to move it.

Because we were a corporation the US government, more specifically the department of energy was very concerned that a private corporation may be venturing into what they perceived to be the realm of national security research.

On the day we fired the laser for the very first time at a real, fueled glass bead target 1/3 of the homes and business in this community of 150,000 people lost power for 5 minutes. Neutrons, the goal - to produce them where there were none, were detected miles away and we learned that the massive chamber that we built was useless. Neutrons would pass through anything......

Energy was created but not as much as we put into the laser but the concept that has led to many nations now pursuing laser fusion was invented.

And today although this little corporation is long gone many nations are racing to be the first to produce more energy with a laser fusion reaction then they put into the experiment.

So..... why is this relevant?

Because I think that the intended meaning of the "just do it" phrase is to "validate" one's thoughts and ideas. That's all, not that it was intended to mean to stop intellectualizing but to put your ideas into practice and validate them if you can.

Small builders and even hobby builders have the luxury of trying new things. We may not have the time to try new things but unlike the larger manufactures and smaller brand builders who have to avoid risk and warranty claims we can build guitars to validate our ideas. And I have seen some examples of the larger factories taking note of what small builders are doing too.

What's more important - intellectualizing or doing? Neither - they both are just as important but either will stand a better chance at success if it is balanced by an appropriate level of the other. Think AND do.

Thanks.

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Post by ozziebluesman » Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:01 am

Some great discussion going on here. I'm enjoying all your thoughts.

Well i think "just do it" but in a structured mannor and have a plan.

Mathew i too feel for you and your hugh disadvantage of the cost of your materials.

I am a beginner builder and at 55 yrs young, have limited guitar builds in me!! Before making a start on my first acoustic instrument my first goal was to have all the stages of my build fully visulised in my head. Also have the tools on hand necessary to carry out each stage. Making two instruments at the same time and having to think about the same stages twice also has helped me to be a successful builder thus far. I am also lucky the wood for one instrument has cost nothing. The think tank approach in guitar building is a winner IMO. This forum here has given me so many great ideas from the discussions here on a variety of subjects and the group buys have been super.

At the end of the day my guitars may turn out great and they might turn out poor but i'm doing this for me, for the sense of achievement it has brought me and because i am very passionate about the guitar.

In the end take all the infomation, sift it through your head, make your own decision and just do it!!!

Alan

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Post by sebastiaan56 » Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:35 am

Hi Matthew,

Im on #2 and Im 51, but I make smaller instruments, mandos and a Baritone Uke. There is a cittern or two coming as well but nothing that I could honestly ask money for. Yes, they will be part of my legacy as will be the people I spent time with and hopefully some sort of nest egg.

Im not always using the highest quality materials as I dont have the cash and there are mouths to feed. If I spent $500 on timber for one instrument my arse would be sleeping on the floor. I cant/dont spray, dont have a bandsaw, dont have a cylinder sander etc. This means I need to learn to be really accurate with hand tools, no probs it was good enough for Stradivarius, Guaneri etc. This allows me to explore timber yards with a different attitude and I have been surprised. But I agree about hardware, this is where the vendors recover overheads and then some, particularly off us little guys.

I do plan and cogitate, I tend to make the instruments fit the available resources. I was kidding with my wife that I'll probably never make the same instrument twice but hey thats also my nature. I may make dozens of instruments, but I dont know what they will be!

BTW I know you did well at the Sydney Working With Wood show last year so dont be hard on yourself, you are very good at what you do mate! Im also feeling a bit better so I may see you on Sunday yet,
make mine fifths........

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Post by Sam Price » Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:25 pm

Some interesting thoughts here, and nice story, Hesh!

For me, it largely depends on my income and time. I don't have much of either. When I am building I want to craft instruments to the best of my ability plus have something I can play on a regular basis.

10% of my time can be spared for guitar building. The other 90% is just everyday demands.

What I do have is the ability to think things through visual-intellectually. In fact 60% of the time guitarbuilding is going on in my head, when I am away from the tools and materials, whether I am at work, or in the car, or doing the daily routines as a parent.

The process for me is as follows; research--visual conception--mental organising--physical creation. I find when I am prepared in this manner, I can just pick up the tools and do it.

It has always been this way for me as an artist. Sorry if it's different to the "just do it" mentality...it's a method that is compatible with my current lifestyle, and would "just get on with it" if I had more free time. I'm not waiting until retirement so that I can build guitars at leisure, life's too short!!!

I believe some athletes use the method of visualisation to help them perform better.

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Post by Dennis Leahy » Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:01 pm

Guilty as charged.

I need more "do it" time, and less "think about it" time. I do think it is critical (for me) to intellectualize and visualize, then take the idea to physical reality, but I know that I'm out-of-balance on the intellectualizing vs sawdust making equation, and I do need more hands-on time.

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Post by matthew » Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:47 pm

The more time I spend thinking, the better focussed and efficient my do-it time. The more do-it time I have, the more I have to think about.

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Post by Craig » Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:57 pm

:lol: :lol: That's exactly how it works out for me too Matt ! :lol:

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Post by Rick Turner » Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:26 am

Please understand that I was never advocating NOT thinking and planning, but what I have seen is some folks getting totally wound up and paralyzed by the thought process to the point where they are afraid to commit to cutting and shaping wood. There are so many "but what if" statements running around in their heads that all guitar making is is a mental exercise.

I used to see the parallel of this among some clients in Los Angeles...they got into home recording and were forever one piece of gear away from completing their CD. "If I only had this piece of gear that I think would make my music better...", etc., etc.

There's a huge amount of muscle memory that you need to be a good guitar maker. You have to practice this stuff...cutting, shaping, tapping, scratching, listening, sanding. No amount of intellect is going to give you the experience you need doing fret jobs, for instance. You need to practice this stuff like a musician practicing scales. You've got to get those hands busy and get the visceral feel of guitar making and set up, too. This is one of the reasons I advocate doing repair work. There's nothing like getting your hands on a lot of different guitars and figuring out how to make them better.

Of course the intellect must work with the hands, but too much thinking can lead you as astray as Professor Michael Kasha seems to have gotten himself. Balance it out, and don't be afraid to fail. I can't tell you the number of experiments and prototypes I've made that didn't quite work, but led to something much better. Sure, I've had projects that worked the first time...where the intellect was all I needed...but there's nothing like cutting and fitting and feeling and hearing the results.
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Post by Serge » Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:30 am

Dennis, let me encourage you my friend,

There is a time for everything, a time for planning and a time for acting out on a thought, i remember all the newbies at the OLF and i used to be one of them who read the posts and stood in awe at all the wonderful instruments everyone was building but prior to the OLF, i remember that i had prepared mentally to make all the mistakes possible on my very first guitar so that i would make other mistakes on the following builds :lol: , it is part of the learning curve after all is said and done, we just grow as builders. Pride is just that one thing that stops us from going forward, what if i screw up do we think huh? So what! you scrap a few pieces of wood, scratches made on our egos but in the end, we all become the humble builders that remember the shy beginnings in the craft.

Dennis, get to yer shop dude, i just can't wait to see that next build of yours! :D

Serge
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Post by Paul B » Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:18 pm

Rick Turner wrote:Please understand that I was never advocating NOT thinking and planning, but what I have seen is some folks getting totally wound up and paralyzed by the thought process to the point where they are afraid to commit to cutting and shaping wood. There are so many "but what if" statements running around in their heads that all guitar making is is a mental exercise.
Yes, yes, yes. This is what I was agreeing with you about earlier. You have to plan and think things through - it's not a "Just do it" vs "Intellectualising" type deal. You have to do both. At some point you've gotta jump in with both feet and start cutting wood. The trick is to know when you've gotten as far as you can by just thinking about it, and not waste your time by over-thinking about it.

Thats pretty much whats been happening with the adjustable neck thread, there was lots of thought going on, but wood was also being worked at the same time. We need more threads like that here - in my opinion.

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Post by BillyT » Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:03 pm

Dohink !!!

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