bridge & fretboard finishing

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kiwinoz62
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bridge & fretboard finishing

Post by kiwinoz62 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:55 pm

Hi all,

I need some advice on finishing the bridge/fretboard, be it ebony or rosewood.
I have a Stewmac buffing set-up but am unable to achieve a high gloss finish from buffing.

To start with I used a scrap piece of rosewood, sanded it smooth and spread some Gilly Stephenson's Beeswax furniture polish on, the finish was no better than when I started.

How do other forum members go about achieving a semi gloss, high gloss or even a shiney finish on a bridge or fretboard?
Grateful for any advice.
cheers wayne . . .

'keep on strummin'

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Kim
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Re: bridge & fretboard finishing

Post by Kim » Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:07 pm

Hi Wayne,

On 'Hard'woods such as ebony and malga etc, I have used micro-mesh out to 12000 to good effect. Once done the wood has a nicely polished look without any finish but a bit of wax or a wipe with truoil can really lift it.

http://www.thesandpaperman.com.au/sheet ... rades.html

Cheers

Kim

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Nick
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Re: bridge & fretboard finishing

Post by Nick » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:38 pm

Ebony will satin up if you buff with the brown Menzerna buffing compound on your buff (be aware that the frets will blacken your buffing wheel so have a spare handy, I have one just for this purpose). Rosewoods and Ebony (If i don't want to get the buffer going) I use Penetrol oil, keep putting it until it won't soak up any more then give it a good buff with a rag with the oil in it, should bring it up to a sheen. Unless you want to put clear finish on the fingerboard, it will never get to a full gloss whichever timber you choose to use.
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Allen
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Re: bridge & fretboard finishing

Post by Allen » Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:39 am

With very hard wood with small to no pores it's just a matter of finish sanding up through the grits until you are sick of doing that. Then a bit of wax and a buff.

On Rosewood though, the wood isn't quite as hard and pores can be very large to huge. Almost impossible to get a really fine finish on that type of wood without doing something to fill pores and harden up the surface.

I've not tried it, but I've seen Rick Turner recommends a clear penetrating epoxy sealer (CPES) for just such a job. In the USA it's Smiths brand. Very difficult to get in Australia. I've been told that the solvent in Smith's version is acetone, so it must be shipped by road freight.

Here I've found Boat Coat works very well for me on other epoxy pore filling and glueing jobs. It's solvent is something else with a very long and technical name that is used as an additive after the hardener has been added to the resin. But as I said. I've not used it to fill a fret board, only the body and necks on instruments.
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Trevor Gore
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Re: bridge & fretboard finishing

Post by Trevor Gore » Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:13 am

If you're contemplating a finish on a bridge, check this out: click

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Re: bridge & fretboard finishing

Post by MBP » Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:56 pm

Most chanderlys sell a penetrating epoxy called everdure. You can thin epoxy with acetone for a similar result as penetrating epoxy. It reduces the gluing strength by a lot and doesnt actually penetrate all that far but penetrating epoxy doesnt either.

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Re: bridge & fretboard finishing

Post by graham mcdonald » Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:35 pm

Ebony and rosewood can be polished up to quite a shiny finish by a variety of methods (as detailed above) but they oxidize and dull down quite quickly, so you ca never really keep them buffed up as much as you might like. Then again, why is it important to have a glossy fingerboard and bridge?

As well, I am a firm believer that lots of oil on both ebony and rosewood fingerboards leads to problems when refretting, as the end grain in the fret slots will absorb the oil, soften it up and make them much more likely to chip out when pulling frets out. Ebony can be problematic for years, it keeps on drying and shrinking and after several decades gets really brittle (perhaps the term is friable) and can just crumble away. I don't know if lots of oil on the board helps or hinders this.

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Re: bridge & fretboard finishing

Post by matthew » Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:18 pm

On ebony, Kiwi Parade Gloss. Goes on easy, fills pores, dries hard, buffs up shiny. Try it.

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Kim
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Re: bridge & fretboard finishing

Post by Kim » Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:31 pm

Kim wrote:Hi Wayne,

On 'Hard'woods such as ebony and malga etc, I have used micro-mesh out to 12000 to good effect. Once done the wood has a nicely polished look without any finish but a bit of wax or a wipe with truoil can really lift it.
Just wanting to qualify this. For those unaware, Truoil should not be viewed as an 'oil' finish despite what it's name suggests. Much like tung oil, which is a drier hardening quite quickly via polymerisation as a varnish, Truoil tacks quickly also to sit 'on' the wood more so than 'in' the wood. This is even true when applied to spruce, on, not in and penetration would need to be expressed in microns. Therefore no comparison should be made with fretboard oil, most of which that is on the market is nothing more than plain old mineral oil with lemon sent added, because 'that' stuff really does go 'in'.

Must also agree with Graham here. Excess oil down in the slots is not a good thing. When the frets go in they compress the endgrain either side of the slot. If you put heaps of oil in there it will soften and expand the wood of the endgrain causing it to pinch the tang compressing the fibres even more. Later down the track as the slots dry and the oil hardens, the once over compressed wood can come away from the tang and result in lose frets. Worse as the oil hardens it makes the crushed endgrain very brittle and just as Graham suggest, this will cause pretty bad breakout when you try to pull them because the slot can simply crumbles away regardless of what you do and how well you support it....well that has been my occasional experience anyhow.

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Kim

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Re: bridge & fretboard finishing

Post by kiwigeo » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:45 pm

Kim wrote:
Must also agree with Graham here. Excess oil down in the slots is not a good thing. When the frets go in they compress the endgrain either side of the slot. If you put heaps of oil in there it will soften and expand the wood of the endgrain causing it to pinch the tang compressing the fibres even more.
Not sure I follow this argument Kim. I wick water into my fret slots prior to fretting the idea being the water swells up the fretboard wood and aids in gripping the fret. Oil on the other hand is an inert substance and while I agree it will soften wood I don't understand how it can cause it to expand.
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Re: bridge & fretboard finishing

Post by Tod Gilding » Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:09 pm

I just wanted to point out that most of what I have found called Tru Oil has a Poly in it as well as the oil,not sure that I would want a poly on my fretboard, I have used with success Tung Oil ( You have to be carefull with a lot of the Tung oil products as they can contain poly as well ) another one that works well is 100% pure cold pressed Olive oil, Olives are a fruit, not a vegetable, and will not go rancid can also help to polish to a bit of shine thats hangs around for quite while when used with ooo steel wool, I normally don't use anything on fretboards and bridges but I have used the mentioned oils in the past with success .
Tod



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Kim
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Re: bridge & fretboard finishing

Post by Kim » Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:19 pm

So you feel endgrain can be softened by oil, but it cannot absorb oil during that process Martin, I am not sure I follow? That's has not been my experience anyhow which is all I have to go on.

As for putting water in the slots prior to fretting to soften the wood I personally don't see the benefit should the correct tang width to slot ratio have been selected. However if adding water works for you, then you should stick with it because that is all that matters in the end.

I've tried a few things now including dry, with pva on the tang, wicking CA either side after they're pressed and a combination of pva and then CA. The pva does help to lube the frets assisting in installation, and as I press them in now days, I feel that provides more consistent feedback to the handle of the press as the tang overcomes friction and slip into place. But to be honest, the main reason I use these glues is to assist in removal of the frets if required down the track. The glue helps secure the structure of wood either side of the slot so a quick heat with a 100w Wellar soldering pistol and, if you've ground the face of your end nippers flat and have the correct angle to the back bevel of their jaws, the frets tend to pinch up with very little to no breakout.

But then the use of glue also becomes a factor to be considered in relation to my feelings about the use of excessive oil on fretboards. I feel quite certain those fret slots I reported above which had crumbled away upon fret removal from what I firmly believe to have been the result of the endgrain becoming pulpy at some stage from the excessive use of oil (think new over zealous owner applying @ once a week for six to nine months while they were keen as mustard to become the next big thing) which had then been allowed to dry out (think sitting under the bed for a year or 10 waiting to be sold on due to lack of interest) to become almost crystalline or charcoal like, presumably from the pulpy oil soaked sponge either side of the fret having polymerised...whew... would probably never have had any glue sealing the slots from penetration by the oil in the first place.

By the way I've witnessed this crumbling a few times. What is interesting is that 2 of the guitars had come from the same owner who followed the scenario I describe above excepting that he had his interest re-sparked once his kids grew and just wanted the guitars put back in order. I should have taken images because what once had been wood comes out stuck in the tang and picks off like bits of mouse shit. The slot had the same crumbly crap running up the endgrain for almost a mm each side rendering the board useless you were to epoxy the new fret in. Maybe I'm on the wrong track but I can't think what else could cause the problem other than the oil he fessed to applying liberally on a regular basis.


Cheers

Kim

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Re: bridge & fretboard finishing

Post by Kim » Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:22 pm

Tod Gilding wrote:I just wanted to point out that most of what I have found called Tru Oil has a Poly in it as well as the oil,not sure that I would want a poly on my fretboard, I have used with success Tung Oil ( You have to be carefull with a lot of the Tung oil products as they can contain poly as well ) another one that works well is 100% pure cold pressed Olive oil, Olives are a fruit, not a vegetable, and will not go rancid can also help to polish to a bit of shine thats hangs around for quite while when used with ooo steel wool, I normally don't use anything on fretboards and bridges but I have used the mentioned oils in the past with success .
I only know of one product called Truoil Todd. Its made in the USA by Birchwood Cassey and marketed specifically for use on gun stocks.

Image

TIP: If you ever buy the stuff, stock up on marbles. Each time you use some on a project, place a marble or two in the bottle when your done to bring the level back up to the neck to expel the air. If you don't do this, what ever remains in the bottle will go off very quickly and become useless.

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Kim

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Re: bridge & fretboard finishing

Post by Tod Gilding » Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:20 pm

No I Don't use the stuff Kim, as I said I believe it has a poly in it , may be good for guns , but not my fretboards :D

I normally don't use anything on my fingerboards except maybe a polish with 000 Steel wool, I have also stopped the 000 on my guitar bodies as I think it was you that advised against it due to adhesion issues with the finish, but I still use it where I don't apply Finish, fretboards and bridges :D
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kiwigeo
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Re: bridge & fretboard finishing

Post by kiwigeo » Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:35 pm

Kim wrote:So you feel endgrain can be softened by oil, but it cannot absorb oil during that process Martin, I am not sure I follow? That's has not been my experience anyhow which is all I have to go on.
I didn't say that wood cannot absorb water. I said that I can understand oil softening wood but I don't see how it can cause swelling of the wood as water does. Plonk a plank of wood into a bath of water and it will swell up like nobody's business. Plonk a plank of wood into a bath of oil and it won't swell up.

Oil is an inert liquid...water is not....it's why it's the world's most abundant solvent.

Re wicking water into fret slots to swell the wood.....the same thing happens when you put a water based glue like PVA into the slot.
Martin

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Re: bridge & fretboard finishing

Post by kiwinoz62 » Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:51 pm

Hi everyone,

Thank you all for responding, all of the replies have been great & I guess it shows there's no single way to achieve a nice shine to you're bridge/fretboard.

I ended up taking Kim's advice, with the use of elbow grease and sandpaper (400 - 2000) and then a final buffing here is what I ended up with.
SDC12772.JPG
SDC12774.JPG
The EIR is just a natural finish, no polish or wax, the photo's are'nt that great but the finish is nice & very shiney, just what I was after.
cheers wayne . . .

'keep on strummin'

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Re: bridge & fretboard finishing

Post by kiwinoz62 » Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:00 pm

Hi again,

The date on the photos are wrong & should show 05/08/2012, camera malfunction.
Thanks again guys.
cheers wayne . . .

'keep on strummin'

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Kim
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Re: bridge & fretboard finishing

Post by Kim » Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:46 pm

Great to here things worked out for you Wayne, looks real nice. 8)
kiwigeo wrote:Plonk a plank of wood into a bath of oil and it won't swell up.
I disagree. Leave the planks in side by side baths topping up the water as necessary for a couple of years and then see what happens. Take them out and, depending upon density and dimensions of the planks, by then both will probably have reached saturation point. The water soaked wood will soon dry, the oil soaked wood however will never dry, instead it will likely rot away in time with the affects of oxidation.
kiwigeo wrote:Re wicking water into fret slots to swell the wood.....the same thing happens when you put a water based glue like PVA into the slot.
I disagree again. As I said before the glue will also sure up the wood either side of the slot making it easier to remove the frets when required without damage. Water won't do that for you.

Cheers

Kim

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Re: bridge & fretboard finishing

Post by Kim » Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:03 am

Tod Gilding wrote:No I Don't use the stuff Kim, as I said I believe it has a poly in it , may be good for guns , but not my fretboards :D

I normally don't use anything on my fingerboards except maybe a polish with 000 Steel wool, I have also stopped the 000 on my guitar bodies as I think it was you that advised against it due to adhesion issues with the finish, but I still use it where I don't apply Finish, fretboards and bridges :D
Not sure about the poly comment Tod because try as I may, I've never seen anything definitive on the make up of the product. Lots of conjecture about what's probably in it (most popular opinion seems to be a combo of tung and some other drier oil, the name of which escapes me for now..probably ginko or something as I recall) but nothing seems any firmer than that. If you know something solid please give us all a heads-up. I do know that oil finishes like pure tung oil and other oil based varnishes harden via process of polymerisation. So 'polymer' is the end product of them all once they come into contact with oxygen.

That said I don't use Truoil on the FB either but it seems a good choice on the bridge if your after 'that' look, and that look can be pretty spectacular with correct application on the right bit of wood. In fact Truoil can work realy well as a finish on tops...yep tops and the back and sides of a guitar, and its outstanding on the neck for feel. There's plenty of guitars out there that have been done this way and they look great, so I see the product as another arrow in the quiver.

Re; My comment about steel wool. That would have been in relation to a potential for fibres to remain caught in the grain left unseen only to then oxidise later and stain the surrounding wood under the finish.

If you have not tried micro-mesh you should give it a shot, quite impressive results when used without any finish on 'hard' woods, and as mentioned, when used in conjunction with a quick wipe of Truoil the look can be quite classy.

Here's an image I just took with my phone of a malga knife handle (because I couldn't be stuffed looking around for anything else I have Truoil on). I made the blade of this knife years ago out of a worn out 15" power hacksaw blade using a linisher. The cutting edge is 9 3/4", perfect for filleting guppies. Its very good steel and takes a great edge, but it had sat around forever without a handle as just another useless unfinished project. So about a year and a half ago I used a bit of scrap Mulga to make this handle so it could sit around as another useless finished project..the guppies died a long time ago.

Back to the finish. The photo is not great but you get the idea. The Mulga was first sanded with Micro-mesh through the grits to 12000 and then followed by 2 coats of truoil, each being rubbed in and friction polished with my thumbs and once it felt dry, a rag was used to ensure no excess finish remained. Total time...10 maybe 15 min tops. It seems to handle getting knocked about in a big pointy thing draw with the cork screws, meat mallet and clever etc and it feels great in your hand as Truoil always does.

Mulgatroil.jpg
Here's a thread worth checking out for more TO info. You will see further down that page where I have posted a link to another forum based in the USA where a bloke there shows his work and explains his method for achieving some pretty special results which make the finish on the guitar I show pale by comparison.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4011

Cheers

Kim

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Nick
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Re: bridge & fretboard finishing

Post by Nick » Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:45 am

Glad it worked out for you Wayne and the results came up nicely, that top looks as though it's got a nice bit of bearclaw running through it :D I'm more interested in where you got your Bob the Builder work mat from though :wink: :mrgreen:
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Re: bridge & fretboard finishing

Post by kiwigeo » Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:24 am

Kim wrote:
kiwigeo wrote:Re wicking water into fret slots to swell the wood.....the same thing happens when you put a water based glue like PVA into the slot.
I disagree again. As I said before the glue will also sure up the wood either side of the slot making it easier to remove the frets when required without damage. Water won't do that for you.

Cheers

Kim
It is a well known fact that water based glues can cause wood swelling........its the reason many people avoid its use on rosette inlays.

Note I didn't dispute the other advantages of using PVA glue that you mentioned.... I actually use PVA in my fret tangs as well as whicking water into the slots.
Martin

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Re: bridge & fretboard finishing

Post by Kamusur » Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:50 am

Used some Extra virgin on an oilstone before moving and 1st use months later it was really on the hooter (fairly rancid). Definitely wouldn't use it on a fret board.

Steve

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Re: bridge & fretboard finishing

Post by Tod Gilding » Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:02 am

I'm not sure what's happening there Steve, I used it on a fretboard and also on a oil stone and havn't experienced it going rancid, granted I use it very sparingly, but unable to comment on the smell. possibly a combination of the olive and whatever else was left on the stone. I did read on a woodworking forum that it must be 100% pure Cold pressed, this forum was where I got the idea, I hope I'm not passing on bad info here.
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Re: bridge & fretboard finishing

Post by MBP » Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:10 am

Has anyone tried woodturning wax.

Glass could be used to polish the wood.

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Re: bridge & fretboard finishing

Post by Kamusur » Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:37 am

I probably used more than i should have Todd and if i remember correctly Bertolis was on special at Woolies that day . It was only a cheapo combination in a styrofoam box and it was pretty wet and greasy/sticky when i took it out :oops: , time for a kero bath.

Steve

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