More WTF moments

[simso]

Its got to make you wonder, really where are these builders learning / getting there skills from

[jeffhigh]

Its got to make you wonder, really where are these builders learning / getting there skills from

Obviously ex Gibson Custom Shop

[Dominic]

Ah yes, the sonic superiority of the dovetail neck joint is clear to me in this picture. And that cavern under the nut is not the work of some factory slacker, its a highly efficient secret tone innovation that gives X brand guitars their unique sound (of wolf notes and dead spots.)
How many of those overpriced martins and gibsons look like this under the hood?
Dom

[kiwigeo]

So how many of you achieved your first dovetail joint without adding shims and removing same with sanding sticks a couple of dozen times before finally saying "f**k it" and gluing up the joint hoping nobody would pull it apart one day and discover pretty much what you see in the photo above?????

[Kim]

Yes it looks like really shity work, and it is. But it once was not quite as bad as it looks now.

If you look at the image you can see how the contact/bondo/whatever has stretched between the cheeks of the tail and the pins. Yes there are shims, but the wood has quite obviously shrunk quite a bit since the bond had originally been made.

Makes me think perhaps a lack of seasoning and/or, a lack of humidity control had been as much to blame for what we see as poor hand skills....all that aside Steve....How does it sound mate ??? .

Cheers

Kim

[Ormsby Guitars]

Yes it looks like really shity work, and it is. But it once was not quite as bad as it looks now.

If you look at the image you can see how the contact/bondo/whatever has stretched between the cheeks of the tail and the pins. Yes there are shims, but the wood has quite obviously shrunk quite a bit since the bond had originally been made.

Makes me think perhaps a lack of seasoning and/or, a lack of humidity control had been as much to blame for what we see as poor hand skills....all that aside Steve....How does it sound mate ??? .

Cheers

Kim

No way on earth that is shrinkage to that effect, otherwise how much has the overall neck width shrunk?? 4mm??

[Kim]

Yes it looks like really shity work, and it is. But it once was not quite as bad as it looks now. Kim

No way on earth that is shrinkage to that effect, otherwise how much has the overall neck width shrunk?? 4mm??

Sheesh, at least read 'all' the bloody post before posting your assumptions. If that neck is cedar or a large celled hardwood (and it is) then lateral shrinkage would be considerable from one extreme of RH to the next. If the wood was wet, then 2mm over 75mm is 'not' unheard of, add to that a half arsed attempt at a dovetail and you can double that gap. My point is that what ever the cause, blind Nedie can 'see' the stretch of the glue (whatever it was) as the wood of the pin has shrunk from its original bond with the tail cheeks/shims.

[Ormsby Guitars]

I'll say it again. No way on earth that shrunk anywhere near whatever it is you're claiming it to have shrunk.

Mahogany shrinks no more than 3-4% between fresh cut GREEN lumber, and 7% moisture dried.

--

Of course, what we dont see is how close the gap is 4mm down where it's impossible to see.

[Ormsby Guitars]

Yes it looks like really shity work, and it is. But it once was not quite as bad as it looks now. Kim

No way on earth that is shrinkage to that effect, otherwise how much has the overall neck width shrunk?? 4mm??

Sheesh, at least read 'all' the bloody post before posting your assumptions. If that neck is cedar or a large celled hardwood (and it is) then lateral shrinkage would be considerable from one extreme of RH to the next. If the wood was wet, then 2mm over 75mm is 'not' unheard of, add to that a half arsed attempt at a dovetail and you can double that. My point is that what ever the cause, blind Nedie can 'see' the stretch of the glue (whatever it was) as the wood of the pin has shrunk from its original bond to the tail and shims.

thats glue left from the fretboard removal. Its all over the surface. Part of removing a fretboard generally includes heat. Using a spatula moves the glue around. Look at the rest of the neck.

[simso]

So how many of you achieved your first dovetail joint without adding shims and removing same with sanding sticks a couple of dozen times before finally saying "f**k it" and gluing up the joint hoping nobody would pull it apart one day and discover pretty much what you see in the photo above?????

I know your point mate, however I remember my first dovetail, and yes it was shit, but I knew it was and did it again, and again and again and again, until finally IMO it was right, I never let it go until I had perfected the perfect fit, now Im proud as punch of my dovetails, its our hand skills that make the difference, I would never let something leave my hands until I was happy with the end result.

This guitar played like crap, sounded like crap.

Unfortunatley there not paying me to remove the neck and redo the joint, just a new fretboard with some inlay work

I thought I would share.

[simso]

Yes it looks like really shity work, and it is. But it once was not quite as bad as it looks now.

Kim

I know what you mean kim, but I do believe this may have always been shit.

As a repairer more than a builder, you have to reverse engineer things and work within the design constraints the builder created, when I evaluate something for repair I scrutinise it for poor hand skills or unseasoned wood or poor adhesion products, in this scenario it was just bad hand skills, I came to this conclusion by analysing the grain lines in the neck, if it was unseasoned wood then the grain lines would be consistent and simply distorted twisted or tighter, but when the deviations are across grain lines and are inconsistent then you can usually match that up with the hand skills of the builder.

Follow the grain line Ive highlighted as a reference, and then look at the deviations in all directions from that grain line, they are consistent IMo with poor chisel work

[Kim]

thats glue left from the fretboard removal.

No its not, that stuff circled is deeper into the gap and has stretched from shrinkage between the bonded components. You 'still' seem set on your assumption that I had suggested that 'all' of the gap can be attributed to wood shrinkage when I never did. 'I' will say it again..............it was a shit joint to start with made worse by shrinkage.

[MBP]

Is this a handmade guitar or a factory job? Who made it?


It actually looks like a nice top

[simso]

Kim you are right and so is perry

, There is an abundance of glue on the surface from the heat applied and smeared during the removal of the fretboard, but there is also evidence of glue deep within the joint, whetehr that glue is from "gap filling" or shrinkage I cannot answer without removing the neck for a difinitive answer, but my heart of heart has an opinion.

[simso]

Is this a handmade guitar or a factory job? Who made it?

It actually looks like a nice top

Through respect for Bob and his wishes, we are not naming brands, simply discussing.

Its through discussion we can identify ""interesting things"" with no fear of retribution on any one.

[Kim]

As a repairer more than a builder, you have to reverse engineer things and work within the design constraints the builder created

I've done more repairs than builds Steve so I do know what you mean and readily admit that seeing in the flesh is always going to tell more of the story than an image on a PC. But for mine, that pin has shrunk from the sides of the tail 'accentuating' the poor workmanship prior to assembly and that is the only suggestion I have made. Anyone who reads otherwise in my posts has comprehension skills matching the hand skills of the dude who had cut that joint in the first place.

[Ormsby Guitars]

thats glue left from the fretboard removal.

neck joint.jpg

No its not, that stuff circled is deeper into the gap and has stretched from shrinkage between the bonded components. You 'still' seem set on your assumption that I had suggested that 'all' of the gap can be attributed to wood shrinkage when I never did. 'I' will say it again..............it was a shit joint to start with made worse by shrinkage.

looks like veneers to me. Look like they are doing nothing at the top, but who knows 5mm down. I mean, look at the top one. It has a 90deg cut to the face of it (if it is veneer). Glue doesnt form like that with just a perfect 90deg cut so far from anything else.

[Kim]

looks like veneers to me. Look like they are doing nothing at the top, but who knows 5mm down. I mean, look at the top one. It has a 90deg cut to the face of it (if it is veneer). Glue doesnt form like that with just a perfect 90deg cut so far from anything else.

Put ur glasses on and look at the stretched glue 'between' the pin and the shim on the bass side and the shim and tail on the treble side where I have circled.

[Ormsby Guitars]

looks like veneers to me. Look like they are doing nothing at the top, but who knows 5mm down. I mean, look at the top one. It has a 90deg cut to the face of it (if it is veneer). Glue doesnt form like that with just a perfect 90deg cut so far from anything else.

Put ur glasses on and look at the stretched glue 'between' the pin and the shim on the bass side and the shim and tail on the treble side where I have circled.

I dont see it. I see glue that has been moved via a spatula and heat. Not interested in arguing. Its pointless. Lets just agree that a forum member is making some money on this one (hopefully!).

[simso]

Side note, do you like the non adjustable truss rod fitted that runs non full length but with a full length truss rod slot cut

[simso]

Lets just agree that a forum member is making some money on this one (hopefully!).

Gee that would be nice to make some money every now and then, the hardest bit is not touching it and simply fitting the new fretboard on as requested

[Kim]

I dont see it. I see glue that has been moved via a spatula and heat. Lets just agree that a forum member is making some money on this one (hopefully!).

I reckon you need a new monitor Perry...

Yes lets hope Steve makes a buck out of it. My own experience is that crap workmanship in building the guitar to begin with provides a pretty dicey foundation for any repairer down the track because the owner of such an instrument always seems to find it easier to believe its you and not their baby....young blokes seem to feel the same way about their girlfriends, so I guess its true, love really is blind.

P.S. The short length non adjustable truss rod is an intentional tonal enhancement Steve. The light weight let the player move like Jagger and who needs an adjustment when its just right anyhow??

Cheers

Kim

[Nick]

Is this a handmade guitar or a factory job? Who made it?


It actually looks like a nice top

I'll come clean, it was one of mine I rely on layers of paint to cover up the cock ups usually. If they're really bad it gets painted all black & I airbrush silver ferns on it & I sell them off as "All Black" guitars as used by the team to play Ten Guitars in the sheds afterwards.

Side note, do you like the non adjustable truss rod fitted that runs non full length but with a full length truss rod slot cut

Specially designed to stop the untrained owner f**kin around with neck adjustment Steve .

[jeffhigh]

Side note, do you like the non adjustable truss rod fitted that runs non full length but with a full length truss rod slot cut

Yes, but at least they added a truss rod cover on the headplate, that's a nice touch.

[simso]

Now this is nicer, made 60 years ago when hand skills counted, I popped the back off and everything inside is beautiful and hand shaped.

Shame it has had a rough life, customer bought it at an op shop for $4, wants it working again, neck block had broken away which has busted up the sides top and bottom