opinions please

[Tod Gilding]

Hi All, I have been asked by a friend to repair this small travel guitar, this a steel string with a 17 ¼ “ scale length , he returned it to the guitar shop where he bought it and got the usual reply from the salesman that he had “subjected it to heat which caused the failure” this is only a cheap guitar, but I don’t believe that it is suitable for the purpose that it was sold , What do you think ? Also if I simply reglue the butt joint how long do think it would be before it fails again, opinions please.

[Matt Bach]

Aside from regluing, could you hide a insert/bolt or dowel in the heel?

As for being suitable for the purpose I'd argue it's not. If it's supposed to be a steel string travel guitar it should be a little more robust and an afternoon in a hot car shouldn't cause it to fold it in half. Can't really blame the salesman unless he sells another while knowing of the potential for failure I guess?

Seems like anything small these days gets called a "travel" guitar, just like everything shoddy gets called a "beginner instrument"...

[kiwigeo]

Tod,

It's called a travel guitar because it has a neck that travels. The Salesman should have explained this to you.

+1 for dowel reinforcement or bolt on modification.

[Nick]

Asking a lot of any glue at such a stressed point I'd say. Unfortunately (without knowing what your friend paid for it) it's the old addage "Buy cheap,get cheap". I'm with Martin & Matt. If some form of hardwood doweling or a bolt on system can be retro fitted then I'd be adding that just for the sake of the little chap's longevity.

[woodrat]

Tod, the label says "Traditional Design Series"....since when was nothing to join the neck on a traditional design...

Is that hide glue on there?....or just wishful thinking.

Give me a ring if you like...

John

[charangohabsburg]

1 hinge + 1 bolt + no glue will make it a real travel guitar... but of course this will most probably not be what your friend would like to get back.

[kiwigeo]

1 hinge + 1 bolt + no glue will make it a real travel guitar... but of course this will most probably not be what your friend would like to get back.

Large gate hinges on special at Mitre 10 this week

[charangohabsburg]

1 hinge + 1 bolt + no glue will make it a real travel guitar... but of course this will most probably not be what your friend would like to get back.

Large gate hinges on special at Mitre 10 this week

Right. Travellers do need sturdy equipment, don't they.

I forgot to mention the possibility of a big rare earth magnet at the traditional location of the neck block and replace the high frets with iron wire. The magnet will not only hold the neck (in its traditional position) but also will serve as a belt clip.

[Tod Gilding]

Thanks Guy’s ,it looks like we all agree that it needs more than just HHG , I think I’ll go through the heal with some threaded inserts and bolt it, then cover it with a heal cap .

I knew when I posted this that Marty and Marcus wouldn’t let me down

John, if I give you a ring, does that mean that were engaged or something (will call soon mate)

[woodrat]

....definitely not!

[simso]

It just looks like a bad glue job, maybe a friday job.

Clean it / glue it properly and it will be fine. Doesnt need a bolt or insert, that being said nothing wrong with fitting one, martins are doing it now as a factory fit.

But glue it properly and it will be fine...

[Allen]

It's a fairly traditional joint for many ukuleles. Never seen it on a guitar though. I'd sleep better at night with at least one bolt in it.

[Tod Gilding]

It just looks like a bad glue job, maybe a friday job.

Clean it / glue it properly and it will be fine. Doesnt need a bolt or insert, that being said nothing wrong with fitting one, martins are doing it now as a factory fit.

But glue it properly and it will be fine...

Steve, What are Martin doing now, surely not joining necks like this, are they ?

[simso]

Mis-interpretation, martins are using just a single bolt through the neck block and into the heel

[Taffy Evans]

David Russell Young's book Steel String Guitar Construction & Repair that I used back in the late 1970's shows the neck attached in this way. Although I built many guitars using his book I could not bring myself to use that method.

[Tod Gilding]

I Don't Blame You For That Taff , It is too much of a critical point to cut corners.at least we can sleep well at night

[kiwigeo]

It just looks like a bad glue job, maybe a friday job.

This joint was bound to fail no matter what day of the week it was made. You'd get by with this cheap arse neck joint on a classical but not on a steel string. Even my Renaissance lute has a dirty big screw through the scarf joint joining the neck to the body of the instrument.

[simso]

I dont understand why people under estimate the strength of glue, properly done its as good as if not better than a screwed joint.

Scarf joints are glued, certainly a smaller area of contact than a whole heel area.
Bridges are glued, massive amount of tension on just a small area, body tops which support the whole bridge are glued,

My point - glue is good if done properly. And for such a big contact point as this little guitar, it would be more than sufficient if done properly

Not criticising others views, its just I glue 3-5 guitars up a day in repairs, and none fail.

[Nick]

Bridges are glued, massive amount of tension on just a small area, body tops which support the whole bridge are glued,

The way I see it,most of the tension around the bridge is taken by the bridge plate Steve as the ball ends sit against it & pulls up, unless of course it's a pinless design (and some of these have failed & I note some have taken to gluing these using epoxy) then the bridge is the sole load bearing member. But you are right when you say a decently prepped & glued joint should be just as strong as mechanically fixed joints. I've glued numerous scarf joints on electric headstocks (that run into the actual neck, so reducing the glued surface area) and only ever had one that failed but I hadn't prepped the joint properly! (leason learn't right there ). In this case tho, some form of mechanical fixing, as well as glue, would be cheap insurance in my opinion.

[simso]

Agreed, an extra screw or bolt is not going to hurt, I had three guitars today that we took the old bridges of and refitted them (they were lifting), this was becuase the manufacturer's get it wrong as well, example leaves lacquer where it shouldnt be, uses insufficient glue, doesnt fit a bridge plate under the bridge, whoops dont need one of those, etc

[Nick]

doesnt fit a bridge plate under the bridge, whoops dont need one of those, etc

If the guitar's too cheap to have a couple of dollars worth of 'extra' wood fitted in such an important area how come the customer's going to the trouble of a repair and not using it as a pizza paddle?

[nnickusa]

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[Lillian]

David Russell Young's book Steel String Guitar Construction & Repair that I used back in the late 1970's shows the neck attached in this way. Although I built many guitars using his book I could not bring myself to use that method.

I remember his book showing a tendon into the body that was locked into place with dowels. The holes for the dowels were drilled two straddle both the tendon and the neck block. But I am getting old and forgetful.

[Cookie man]

I remember his book showing a tendon into the body that was locked into place with dowels. The holes for the dowels were drilled two straddle both the tendon and the neck block.

Sounds painful

[Taffy Evans]

Hi Lillian, yep done that on quiet a few guitars back in the day. I could sleep well knowing that the neck is never going to let go, I was soooo right.
Twenty years on and I had to remove one of those necks and I could not get it out of the tenon. So I sawed it off at the heal and introduced myself to my first bolt on neck.
Then late last year [30 years on] I had another of my guitars, [loaned to a friend by the owner, who left it in the car on a hot day] come back and I had to remove the neck as part of the repair, I cut that off too and used a bolted system.