cyclone shopvac dust kits

[Dominic]

Hey, I just saw that clear vue now has a local web site selling their cyclones in Aust. In the latest woodworker mag is a unit to connect to your shop vac. Its a new design that fits between your inlet hose and your vac to collect most of the dust and chips before their clog up your vac. The new unit looks really neat, is low profile and a better design that the Oneda dust deputy ones.
Web site seems new and does not have the vac unit listed yet but you could check out the US site.

The big problem with clear vue in Aust was freight which meant a competitively priced product become too expensive.

A new full sized unit with a 5HP motor costs $2400. around the same price as local units but designed better with better motors etc.

Check them out http://www.clearvueoz.com.au/our-products.html

Here is the mini on the US site. http://www.minicv06.com/ Costs about $169 in Aust.

I've used the older version for years on fine sanding dust from ROS and for clearing my workshop. So lots of the fine stuff that settles on the floor and benches. I only have to bang the dust out of the vac bag every 6 months, it is usually just a thin coat of dust in the bag. All the other stuff ends up in my cyclone unit. Allen was talking about clogging up his shop vac with mdf. New had this issue. Brillian bit of engineering, they work closely with cyclone and dust guru Bill Pentz.

Here my set up. The vac never moves and I just pull the cyclone around on it wheels. The new unit is only half as tall.

Shopvac 002 (Custom).JPG (101.1 KiB) Viewed 26152 times

Cheers
Dom

[charangohabsburg]

Glad to see ClearVue is back in business. (It got sold, right?)

Dom, If I remember well the old Mini ClearVue (the one you have) had better fine dust separation ratings than the now advertised 80%. It was something like way over 90%. I may be wrong though.

I have made my own mini cyclone along the scalable plans Bill Pentz provides for free, but it turned out that my shop vac seems to be overrated (on its tag) what suction refers, so must of the dust (and even some chips!) ended up in the bag and filter. I am undecided if I should get a more powerful shop vac or build (or buy) a smaller cyclone (I don't really love metal work...).

[Dominic]

Hey Marcus, the article claims 96% separation for the new mini and they have made several improvements to the air ramp and inlet so these should make it better. The dust deputy has none of these features and I believe they stole the idea from clear vue or at least prevented them selling their own design. The large units claim 99.5% which is pretty bloody good. Just guessing but my unit must be around those figures. I got the larger bag festool vac but could have gone with the smallest as it only ever has a thin layer of dust in the bag.

Marcus, what did you make your mini out of? My vac has adjustable air flow and it still works on the lowest speed. One thing I found was critical was to have zero leaks. Even a small leak meant most of the dust went through to the bag. So I recon that might be what your problem is. It took a while getting it all sealed but once I did it work brilliantly.

I got Bills spreadsheet on cyclones and have toyed with the idea of making a large one. But I think the price of the full size clear vue ones here is pretty good now and by the time I got everything sorted it would cost a lot in time and money and probably not be as good. The clear vue have optimised impellers and really good motors etc.
Carbatec have similarly priced units but they have been designed wrong the tapper of the cyclone is not optimal, the inlets are all wrong and they have just stuck their usual impeller/motor unit on top.

Anyway, these are great and I'm pleased we can get them locally now without worrying about freight.

Dom

[charangohabsburg]

Hi Dom, I was referring to this here:

CVC 1800 full sized system, the Minitm also uses Bill’s unique air flow design that also separates over 80% of the airborne dust.

While here ( http://www.minicv06.com/ ) they are talking of 99.6% "dust and debris removal". Of course, debris (= chips) are the biggest part of that percentage and are unlikely to get into our lungs...

I think 80% vs. the 96% of your (bigger) mini is realistic. The new mini is really tiny!

I guess my home built cyclone is just a number too big, be it because I have miscalculated the maximum inlet cross section (75mm x 40mm) for the airflow, be it because my little yellow sucker at the side of the cyclone (not yet connected) does not do what says its technical data - the former is more probable. Unfortunately air-tightness was not the problem . It would have been easy to fix. It simply should be smaller than that:

[Dominic]

That's a bummer Marcus. Your unit looks good, square intake and everything done right. Mine is about 400mm tall and about 175mm diameter.
The new ones look a lot shorter (although the cone must go into the bucket a bit. But also look a lot wider. I couldn't quite make out the design when I looked briefly but its quite different to mine.
Cheers
Dom

[Dominic]

That's a bummer Marcus. Your unit looks good, square intake and everything done right. Mine is about 400mm tall and about 175mm diameter.
The new ones look a lot shorter (although the cone must go into the bucket a bit. But also look a lot wider. I couldn't quite make out the design when I looked briefly but its quite different to mine.
Cheers
Dom

[charangohabsburg]

Your unit looks good, square intake [...]

Enhanced square intake!

...the curve continues outside.

I'm not too desperate because of the failure. I thought first of building a smaller cyclone but maybe I'll just get a more powerful shop vac with 240cfm (410m³/h) which should do the trick with my cyclone. I would want to try it out before, though. Well, the cyclone acts now since almost 3 years as a piece of modern art on top of the waste container...

[Dominic]

That's great work Marcus, it should be a really efficient setup. Your vac does look a bit small next to it. Perhaps you need to lug it around to a few friends with bigger vacs and try it out. Or sneak it into your vac shop and test it there. Don't forget to bring a bag of dust.

How did you approach attaching the internal ramp to the side of the cylinder. That looks to me the trickiest part. That and getting the ramp to fit accuratetly.

You won't be sorry when you get it sorted out. I put mine on an old shop vac base with wheels and attached it to my vac with 2m of hose. The vac stay in one place now and I move the cyclone unit around and can reach all parts of the shop. Its a very good setup. But I would really like a bigger one to attach to my dust extraction system. Then I should have dust whipped.

Cheers
Dom

[charangohabsburg]

Fitting the ramp was relatively easy because all parts are calculated to be exactly the size they have to be.
I simply extended the "doughnut" to a spiral that was a bit too steep in order I could introduce it in the cylinder, and then let it spring back and moved it in the right position (it binds with the cylinder walls and tends to stay where it is). Then I brazed the upper and lower end of the ramp to the walls and sealed the rest of the wall contacting ramp edge with epoxy that contained "not enough" hardener so that is stays flexible (the first few dust particles will stick to it and then it is not sticky any more). The contacting ramp edge fitted so tight that the slow curing epoxy did not find its way to the other side of the ramp (it just ran down and up the ramp, I had to move it constantly during nearly an hour!).

You won't be sorry when you get it sorted out.

But maybe my neighbours will be sorry (when I start to make much more often much more noise)!

[charangohabsburg]

Your vac does look a bit small next to it.

The perspective deceives. The height of the vac and that of the metal part of the cyclone (without the PVC tubing on top of it) are about the same (55 cm). The suction rating of the vac is a hair more then that of your festool, but it is much noisier!

[Dominic]

Yep, I saw my vac quoted in litres per minute and couldn't be bothered doing to math to compare it to yours. So its just that your cyclone is too large it seems for any shop vac? It does make an interesting piece of modern industrial art.

Actually , sound was the reason I got the festool. I have a little bit of hearing damage and do everything I can to avoid exposing myself to loud noises. The shopvac that is now the base for my cyclone was an absolute screamer. It was so loud I felt I had to wear ear muffs when using it. The festool is very quiet and has the auto on feature which turns the vac on when you start a power tool and turns it off when you stop. Very handy. And compared to an even more powerful vac, my average suction would likely be higher because the bag does not get blocked and lower performance. Anyway, I love this setup and can't fault it. But a big 16" clear vue would be great and pretty much solve any remaining dust issues.

In the web site, there is a short vid where the guy puts a big measuring tape up to the open end of a duct in the system and it picks it up and deposits it in the cyclone. Had to tavel about 8m and through 2 90 degree bends by the looks and it just grabed it out of his hand. Very powerful and again, you get peak performance all the time because your filters stay clear.

Cheers
Dom

[Allen]

Thanks for that link Dom.

I've been knocking around and thinking of a new comprehensive dust extraction system, and the ones from Carbatec really leave me wanting. The Cairns Woodworkers Guild has their largest Cyclone and it's been nothing but a complete pain in the ass with breakdowns, repairs, upgrades and still left wanting. A total waste of money as far as I'm concerned.....and it would never suck a tape measure through the ducting in your wildest dreams.

I'm wondering is anyone has seen or used their larger units as shown on the website? Video goes a bit of the way, but customer feedback sure helps.

[Dominic]

Allen, if you have a look through the web link I put up there is a users forum. They have not been here for very long but have been going in the US for years so there is lots of user experience from over there.
http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/Bullentin/index.php

The Carbatec ones cost about the same as the new Clear Vue ones but the CV ones are designed properly, with US made motors and special impellers. The tapper of the cyclone and the way the inlets are designed are vital to cyclone efficiency. The cyclone on the CT one is too squat and the inlets are wrong. For $2400 I am really liking the 16" model.

Cheers
Dom

[kiwigeo]

The clearvue units look good but the construction looks like its plastic and MDF or is that just my imagination. Bearing in mind the materials used I'd expect the units to be a bit cheaper. Both the units are also 3 phase...not a problem for me but would be for a lot of people.

[charangohabsburg]

Martin, I may be wrong here but I believe the MDF parts are not included, so you can make them from blackwood or BRW or whatever you like.

[simso]

There not cheap are they, for the price they are after Id be wanting a negative pressure unit.
Ive toyed with dust extraction a plenty, I think the best dust free situation is achieveed simply when you move the collection bag/filter outside your workshop. Then its not an issue.

[kiwigeo]

Martin, I may be wrong here but I believe the MDF parts are not included, so you can make them from blackwood or BRW or whatever you like.

Is this correct? Then it makes the units even more expensive. I'll stick with my Jet 2HP unit and pleated filter.

[Dominic]

Martin, the plastic used is very tough and wears better than metal. The wear at the inlet can be quite pronounced on metal cyclones. It can also take impacts better. It is not a cheap alternative to metal or other plastic units. The mdf parts are included as far as I know. So I think they have used the best materials where they need to and saved money where its not important.
Dom

[kiwigeo]

Martin, the plastic used is very tough and wears better than metal. The wear at the inlet can be quite pronounced on metal cyclones. It can also take impacts better. It is not a cheap alternative to metal or other plastic units. The mdf parts are included as far as I know. So I think they have used the best materials where they need to and saved money where its not important.
Dom

Fair enough...

[charangohabsburg]

The mdf parts are included as far as I know.

Yes, I was wrong. Even before Clear Vue found the new owner the MDF blower housing was included. But everything was cheaper, at least in the United States. USD 1295.- for the 15" Combo respectively 1595.- for the 16" version. That was in march 2010.

[kiwigeo]

The mini is reviewed in latest Australian Wood Review.

[Dominic]

The mini is reviewed in latest Australian Wood Review.

Which is where it came to my attention that they are now available locally. There is also an article in the latest Finewoodworking that looks at all the other brands but not CV.

Still, a pleated filter needs to filter down to 0.3 microns to be effective as this is the real bad cancer causing stuff but filters get blocked real easy at that size and performance drops off radically hence the benefit of cyclones.

And the average pleated filter goes down to 3 micron which means your filter becomes a dust distribution system, taking the finest dust from your machines and filling the air with it. Worse than no dust extraction at all. These small particles stay suspended in the air for hours, get into your lungs and the body can't expel them. The use of modern micro abrasives means we generate for more of this harmful dust than years ago. And never before have so many individuals had access to such a range of exotic woods from all over the world which we turn into guitars, wood chips and dust.

There was a thread on the OLF a while ago titled something like, "Why are we all getting sick" The goldern age in guitar making could turn into a goldern age for oncology.

These are the things in my mind when I think about getting dust extraction sorted in my workshop. In that context, spending less than I did on my table saw to create a safer working environment seems a small price to pay.

Cheers
Dom

[kiwigeo]

And the average pleated filter goes down to 3 micron which means your filter becomes a dust distribution system, taking the finest dust from your machines and filling the air with it. Worse than no dust extraction at all. These small particles stay suspended in the air for hours, get into your lungs and the body can't expel them.

Which is why my unit will eventually be located outside my workshop.

[J.F. Custom]

Hey Dom.

I have been looking at buying one of these recently and had the Oneida Dust Deputy lined up for the job due to its availability. Then I too saw the other unit in the Wood Review...

Question I have is, what makes you claim the ClearVue is better than the Oneida? I think above you said that the ClearVue is better designed - but how and where is that information coming from? The Dust Deputy, I see on their site, claim over 99% of material removal before getting to your extractor which is the same I think, they also have a tapered inlet etc...? The details of which can be found here -

http://www.oneida-air.com/static.asp?ht ... tml#itdoes

Sorry if you've covered this above and I've missed it but I'd like to make an informed choice. I don't really understand the differences and what effect on performance they have. It is hard to siphon off the marketing hyperbole "our product is best" from the real performance differences or features to look for. Or are we splitting hairs and the reality is no-one would pick the performance difference?

Any info you could enlighten me to would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Jeremy.

[charangohabsburg]

Hi Jeremy,

Clear Vue let their cyclones test (click).

But in any case, Bill Pentz calls any system with less than 1000 cfm just "chip collectors" (vs. dust collectors). So the mini CV is just a chip collector that works a bit better than the dust deputy. The construction details that make the CV units more efficient are mainly the inlet (the Oneida cyclones have a horizontal inlet while the CV cyclones have an inlet angled downwards which decreases turbulences inside the cyclone) and also the proportions of the whole unit seem to be better. Bill Pentz tested the results of the bigger cyclones (Oneida vs. his own design e.g. Clear Vue) with his own lungs (and it seems that he also has some laboratory data about various brands of cyclone systems, but had a serious problem when he published those results - that is at least what he told me).