Rope Binding

[joe breeden]

Would appreciate any help making rope binding. This is a great forum and my first post. Hope i'm doing it right. Thanks

[graham mcdonald]

There was an article some years ago in American Lutherie by someone who did a production run of several baroque guitars, and worked out a way to make a batch of rope binding. That might help if you can find the article. There is a searchable listing of all the articles in American Lutherie on the GAL site.

cheers

[charangohabsburg]

There was an article some years ago in American Lutherie by someone who did a production run of several baroque guitars, and worked out a way to make a batch of rope binding. [...]

That was in AL #48 issue, now only available in the Big Red Book vol.4. The article describes also (or mostly) the making of roped rosettes.

There was a more recent description of making rope binding in AL #100 (2009). It's just like making herringbone purfling, only that everything is thicker. (Glue up stacked wood strips of alternating colours, cut the resulting slabs diagonally and assemble the resulting rope fragments).

[Tod Gilding]

Allan McFarlen may be able to help with this one he has made some beautiful ukes with rope binding.

Like here viewtopic.php?f=25&t=3355

[Allen]

I know better than try to make it myself. Well, truth be told I tried many times to get it the way I wanted it to look and decided it was far more work than I was willing to invest.

I had a run of it made by Gurian Instruments. Worked out my cost was about $2.35 per strip landed on my door step. You do need to take the entire lay up though, so not much good if you only want a one off instrument.

Micheal Gurian recommended that on my binding a layer of black fibre was laminated to one side and I think it might be koa on the other. This is so when you bend the stuff there is something to help hold it together. Turned out to be very good advice indeed. One side will be sanded away when you round over the binding. You get to choice the colour of the purling strip by picking which side will be the inner.

The tenor in the previous link has the koa to the inside and the black fibre was sanded away.

[Loren Schulte]

Weiss D body1 picnik.jpg (203.43 KiB) Viewed 18674 times

I made my own using the techniques in John Bogdanovich's book Classical Guitar Making. Had to adapt somewhat to get to what I wanted, but the basic how-to is there. Allen's point about having veneer on both sides when bending is important - otherwise the binding wants to come apart pretty easily. I had the most trouble with bending the rosette and went through 3 or 4 attempts before getting a good one. I want to say it was all worth it (although I think the guitar looks great), but not sure I'd do it again until the memory fades a bit more! It's a lot of work. Attached is a picture...the guitar was based on a late 1920's Weissenborn Model "D" "Spanish" style.

[woodrat]

Hi Loren, Very nice guitar and very unusual look!

Can you tell us what the top wood and back and side wood are?

John aka WoodRat

[Loren Schulte]

Hi John and thanks. The top, back, sides and neck are all curly Mahogany from Hibdon Hardwoods. Fretboard and bridge are Madagascar RW and the rope is poplar and mahogany. The original Weissenborn that this was patterned after was posted on Bernunzio's vintage instrument website several years ago and looked very similar except it was all Koa instead of Mahogany.

[woodrat]

Thanks for the reply Loren....I love Mahogany...I haven't used it as a top wood yet though...I love it whether its plain or figured! I cant wait to use the sets that I got out of the two single beds that I sawed up...they are nicely figured...viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3673

John

[Loren Schulte]

"...the sets that I got out of the two single beds that I sawed up..."

Good luck on that! But don't get too anxious to use them, you might want to sleep on it.

[ozziebluesman]

Hi Loren,

Do you have a few more pics of your model D? I've built a few weissenborn style 1 copies now and love the whole design, tone and shape of these guitars. Where abouts are you? Oz or the world?

Cheers

Alan

[Loren Schulte]

Hi Alan,
I'm in the States in southwest Washington near Portland, Oregon. Here's a couple more pics...

LS Weiss D cropped1 picnik.jpg (174.07 KiB) Viewed 18584 times

Weiss D back side view picnik.jpg (112.17 KiB) Viewed 18584 times

[ozziebluesman]

Thanks Loren, beautiful instrument.

Is it setup for slide?

Cheers

Alan

[joe breeden]

Thanks to all for your tips and suggestions for rope binding. I know it will be some what of a task, but I'm going to go with it. Allen the tip about using veneer strips to help hold everything together, kind of puts my mind at ease, when it comes time to bend.

[Allen]

It's still very easy to break them when bending. I found the best way to bend was to just do them dry with a heat blanket and form. Adding moisture and the pipe was nothing but a disaster for me.

One thing about bending these though is that the glue slips just a tiny bit between the blocks when it gets to the right temp, and then sets again when cool. They don't act like regular bindings where the inside of the bend compresses. The bend holds it's shape perfectly. No spring back at all. On really tight bends you will see small gaps develop on the outside of the piece. If you use darker woods like are in mine it's pretty easy to hide this with a bit of sanding dust and CA.

[charangohabsburg]

It's still very easy to break them when bending. I found the best way to bend was to just do them dry with a heat blanket and form. Adding moisture and the pipe was nothing but a disaster for me.

If a dark glue line is acceptable Titebond III (green label) will help. This is what I used for a rope binding section (waist) that had to be replaced on a guitarrón mexicano. I had the strip sandwiched between two auxiliary 0.6mm veneers which I had glued with Titebond original and which I peeled off after bending, before installing the rope binding. I had used the bending iron. The auxiliary veneers started to de-laminate during bending but the tiles stayed nicely where they should.

I was told that LMI white glue (leaving no visible glue line) will also hold things together under more heat and moisture than Titebond original, but I have not tried it yet.