Water based clear filler

[Dominic]

http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/CPF-253 ... ain-Filler

Doing a whole lot of zpoxy pore filling at the moment on 5 guitars and not liking the dangers of too much exposure to it I was looking around and found this. A water based filler that dries clear and can be tinted. Mixed reviews, seem to related to user error (using water based stain under a water based filler) or slower drying time than indicated but one guy has been using it on guitars and likes it. One guy mentioned it took 3 goes to fill pores but we do a similar thing with zpoxy and the idea of a clear product that is safer to apply and sand back has great appeal.
Anyone heard anything about this stuff?

Or, anyone know of any similar products. I really don't like using zpoxy, one guitar at a time is OK but doing 5 with it is a lot of exposure. One thing I have been doing with it is sand the back or sides but leave the dust on then when I apply the zpoxy it mixes with the fine dust and bulks out the filler. Seems to work well but the idea is to cut down on the number of applications so I can cut down on exposure time.

Cheers
Dom

[peter.coombe]

Yep, I have used the Crystalac "clear" grain filler. I have quoted 'clear' because it is not completely clear. I found that sometimes it would go cloudy and I would get little white spots in the pores so in the end gave up. Also I think it contains silica so the dust is dangerous. I now use Target Coatings HSF5100 Filler and Glaze. This is clear and stays clear, I can use it on Ebony and never get spots. However, you need to use quite a few coats to get it to fill the pores properly, far more than Zpoxy. It has had had somewhat mixed reviews, but again it is more a user problem than a problem with the product. One or two coats is definately not enough. Keep going and keep sanding until those pores are filled. There are a lot of builders using it on the Target Coatings forum so it does work. Advantages are it is no where near as toxic, it dries ready to re-coat in 2hrs, and it does not matter if you sand through. Disadvantages - more coats and more sanding is required. I use it on all my mandolins, but did use Zpoxy on a NG Rosewood mandolin recently because Zpoxy fills those big pores nicely. The Zpoxy worked beautifully but I hated using it. The Target Coatings filler is much easier on curved surfaces.

[Dominic]

Thanks for the info Peter. Seems there are few good options for a clear filler. Where do you source the Target Coatings HSF5100 Filler and Glaze and what is it designed for? I am currently doing a beautiful curly narra classical and want the wood to show through as much as possible. I could have used coloured timbermate but I didn't want it to stain or obscure the wood in any way so zpoxy is my best option.

Narra Hauser 003 (Custom).JPG (107.26 KiB) Viewed 14065 times

Narra Hauser 004 (Custom).JPG (104.67 KiB) Viewed 14065 times

Narra Hauser 005 (Custom).JPG (102.64 KiB) Viewed 14065 times

I tried egg on the cocobolo MJ (behind the classical in the pic) I am making by sanding with it to create a fine slurry. Seemed to work quite well but others have reported it shrinks back under nitro leaving pores which defeats the purpose. I wonder if this is because it just needs a long time to cure before it is sanded back as it keeps shrinking for a while. Perhaps I could try doing the bulk of the filling with egg (or timber mate on dark woods) then do a final coat with zpoxy in the hope it does not shrink. I'll try anything to cut down exposure time to zpoxy.

Anyone got any strategies to cut down the number of applications when filling with zpoxy?

Cheers
Dom

[peter.coombe]

I get the Target Coatings HSF5100 direct from Target Coatings in the USA. Postage is a killer, but I usually get a can of their EM2000 varnish at the same time. The filler usually lasts longer than the varnish. The filler pops the grain quite nicely and the clear stuff doesn't stain, so it won't obscure the grain at all. You can also get it tinted with various colours. It can be used under nitro as well as under any of the Target Coatings water based finishes. If I use a coat of shellac after the final coat of this stuff I prefer the look of it over Zpoxy. I can get as smooth a finish with it as Zpoxy, but have to work more at sanding and coating. Despite the extra work, I MUCH prefer working with this water based filler than with epoxy. It takes about the same amount of elapsed time because it dries so fast.

From the Target Coatings web site -

"HSF5100 High Solids Grain Filler Part #5100, 5200, 5300, 5400
Target HSF5100 is a high solids, thermoset urethane grain filler formulated for application by trowel, brush or spray. Specifically engineered to be used on open grain wood and veneer to provide a smooth, non-textured appearance to the final finish once topcoats are applied. Supplied in a clear or tinted base for adjusting or maintaining the wood color integrity or for accentuating the negative grain pattern found in woods such as oak and mahogany. Multiple coats can be applied prior to sanding back to a level surface before topcoats are applied.

The fast drying nature of this system allows topcoats to be applied in as little as 2 hours of initial dry-to-touch time with any water-based topcoat finishing system."

Target Coatings have some very good water based products. Their EM6000 lacquer is getting many good reports in the USA, and I think their EM2000 is an excellent varnish. Many of the USA makers are using KTM SV, but I think the latest formulation of Target Coating's EM2000 is a better varnish. The two products have similar chemistry, but I get better results from EM2000.

Peter

[charangohabsburg]

Yep, I have used the Crystalac "clear" grain filler. [...] Also I think it contains silica so the dust is dangerous. I now use Target Coatings HSF5100 Filler and Glaze. [...]

From the targetcoatings.com product info page (HSF5100 Filler and Glaze):

• Inhalation Remove exposed person to well ventilated area. Treat symptomatically.
  USE IN WELL VENTILATED AREAS. AVOID INHALING RESIDUE.
• WARNING This product contains a chemical(s) known to the State of California to
  Cause cancer and/or birth defects.

I don't know what kind of warnings other products like zpoxy or silica containing fillers are labelled with, and whether they are potentially more or less dangerous. It seems that with all those products it comes down to how we protect ourselves from the fumes and/or sanding dust.

[peter.coombe]

It seems that with all those products it comes down to how we protect ourselves from the fumes and/or sanding dust.

Yep, but that also applies to wood dust.

Peter

[charangohabsburg]

I agree Peter, nothing to argue about that.

Do you consider silica dust emission as especially difficult to control? Is there an additional problem with protecting oneself from the silica dust (which can cause silicosis, I suppose) compared to protection from simple wood dust or evaporating chemicals?

[peter.coombe]

Not really. I used to go outside to sand and wore a dust mask, and blew away the dust with the air compressor. Should always do that.

[neilmac]

Hi
the Target water-based HSF5100 filler & glaze had been avail. on Stew - Mac for a while now
- all 5 reviews recommend you steer clear of it!

I ordered some anyway a week ago with a pile of other stuff and strangely they got the order wrong and sent me Tung Oil instead!

I went back to the site yesterday and it looks like they have discontinued the product - probably based on the reviews and returns

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Finishing_s ... iller.html

cheers

[joolstacho]

Dominic, you can mix thicknessers with epoxies. The one worth trying would be Aluminium oxide. This is a very fine powder that thickens up the resin. You wouldn't need much, it mixes into a very smooth consistency.
I use West systems epoxy, (a much better resin than Zpoxy in my opinion) and haven't found the need to add thicknesser, but Alu Oxide may be worth a try. It's a light grey in colour, but in the amounts you'd use I don't think it would have much, if any influence on the timber colour.
I'm sensitised to epoxy, but simple precautions keep it at bay. Don't panic too much, we're all gonna die in the end eh!

[auscab]

Silica that I got from a pottery supply mixed with oil based sanding sealer works well. How about trying Silica mixed with HHG or Titebond ?