New to the forum and lutherie, a few questions

[Cookie man]

Hey everyone.

First let me say hello, I'm new here,
At the moment I'm doing a school research project on acoustic guitar building, and I have a few questions.

1. How much importance do you as a luthier place on the planning stage of making an instrument?
2. Do you ever go back and change your idea midway through the building process?
3. Does it matter significantly if you use a wood grade that is a bit lower than 'AAA' or similar?
4. Advantages of using a bending iron instead of a mould/heat blanket method for bending sides?

I probably will have more to ask but thats enought for now

[Kim]

Gday (insert name here), welcome to the ANZLF.

Planning is a very important part of the build as far as process goes. But if you are talking design aspects, they should remain open enough to apply new ideas along the way or to accommodate the unexpected. Some of the best 'highlights' I have seen had been the result of an adaptive builder covering up an error. So that takes care of questions one and two because as a beginner, you simply 'must' be prepared to go back and change things as there are just too many things that can and probably will go wrong along the way.

Basically speaking tonewood grading is much like anything else. The right choice for most lay somewhere between two extremes and comes down to what is visually acceptable and functionally desirable to the individual, divided by how much money they have to spend that determines 'their' best choice. Once a decision is made, it is then a matter for the builder to get the best they can from that choice. So if you consider the extremes, best to worst, it can help give some idea of what should work for you and your budget.

A 'master' grade top is not going to sound any better than a "AAA" or even a "AA" grade top, but it should be aesthetically perfect which is a rare thing in natural products like wood. So just like any other collector of rare beautiful things, you will pay very dearly for such an exclusive commodity....but being rare to the eye is 'not' a property in itself that is going make an instrument 'sound' any better. It does not make the wood stiffer or lighter, it just looks 'nice' and nice is good if that is the 'look' your after. That said I find it impossible to see how anyone just starting out could ever justify using master grade anything.

The other extreme is "A" or even "B" grade wood. I group them together as it depends very much on who is grading, but the real indicator is price, if wood is very cheap, there is usually a good reason why. Now some of this stuff can be just fine, "as long as you have the experience to pick through and identify something that is 'structurally' worthy of the time and effort you will invest when turning it into an instrument" If you do have that experience then you can get away with some pretty 'rustic' looking tops that fit the bill just nicely if you will be painting or staining the top, or are after a warts and all 'woody' look, and you will also save a lot of money.

But once again I find it impossible to see how anyone just starting out could justify using "B" grade anything. Their lack of experience would have them gambling that their choice has not left them with a top that not only 'looks' a bit dodgy, but is so floppy that it simply cannot be braced to function effectively, or, so full of short grain that the bridge flies off the moment it is placed under string tension ripping a gaping whole in the guitar as it goes. My best advise is to only buy from a reputable tonewood dealer who grades according to industry standards, and buy their "AA" grade requesting light and stiff with least runout over the best looking of the bunch.

Bending, I do not see any real 'advantage' of a pipe over a blanket but suggest you be prepared to set up with both if you intend to build a few instruments. The blanket and form are the go to for bending sides and bindings, but a pipe is great for touch up work that may be required because of spring back, and also for doing the little bits and bobs you come across on headstock bindings, headstock backstraps and fretboard ends etc.

Cheers

Kim

[Dominic]

Hey cookie, I'll give these a go.

1. Structural design is the single most important determinant of the sound of the finished guitar. Most will start out with established plans for a specific classical (Hauser) or steel string (dred, OM, MJ) guitar and stick to those plans because they know that they will get a particular sounding guitar. The task of the luthier is the fine tune that design in a way that makes the most of the materials used so the potential of the design is optimised. And then apply their own aesthetic touches.

2. Yes, but not in fundamental ways. If I make a dred or an OM that is what I make but I may change braces around, or use different head block configuration or beefed up linings. There are many parameters within the general design that can be changed at any time during the building.

3. No, although it depends how you define ‘matter’. I am striving for a sound so I wouldn’t give as much consideration to aesthetics as I would to tone. To me, what matters in a top is a nice tone and wood does not often get graded by tap tone, not that I have noticed anyway. I am currently making a classical with a AA lutz top that is very stiff and great tap tone but it has some pinkish colour in it that would have downgraded it to AA. But it’s a lovely top and to me the colour is very balanced and pretty. And I’ve used a bunch of AAA tops that were nice and clean and made nice guitars. I wouldn’t use a lower grade than AA+. My 2 best sounding guitars, one is a master grade and the other is AA. So purchasing higher grade wood is no guarantee of a better sounding guitar. Backs and sides are more likely to be graded by how pretty or rare it is so in general these fall into aesthetics not sound.

4. A heat blanket set up allows us to consistently bend difficult woods with minimum cracking or waviness. With the right forms I have been able to bend very tight cutaways that would take a lots of time and skill on an iron. I do bend some things on the iron and love the feel of the wood slowly giving in and bending. The forms also provide the means to make laminated sides with perfect glue joints. It is a large investment in forms and moulds which make it difficult to tweak outlines.

Cheers
Dom

[simso]

Im actually of a different mentality, I plan almost nothing, just grab a bit of wood that I think will do the job and make it happen.

That being said planning is a good option, just dont overplan, too many people over complicate stuff. Keep it simple and functional, the moment your happy then make improvements alterations on that design or future designs

[Allen]

Planning depends on the scope of the project. If it's a commission for a paying customer, then every detail is planned out and they get to sign off on the details prior to commencement. Sometimes they just specify some basic details and let me take care of the other stuff, trusting my judgment. I've got 2 commissions on the go right now and one has been planned down to the finest detail while the other was as simple as the wood choice, body style and scale length.

If it's an instrument without a home to go to yet then I just pick out wood and see where it takes me. There will be some idea in the back of my head, but it's a pretty free form way of building that I quite like. I don't know what the instrument will look like until it's done.

I find wood grading to be quite arbitrary from supplier to supplier, though it's suppose to be quite uniform, in reality it's not. And I'm finding that the more people that get onto selling via eBay this grading system has really failed with vendors now inventing new grades of 5A etc.

From reputable suppliers the grading is still pretty much spot on to the standard, but it still has more to do with cosmetics in the vast majority of cases. I don't mind top wood with a bit of colour so will often use it if the other properties that I'm looking for are there. This is often graded as AA from reputable suppliers, who will tell you that the only reason that it's been downgraded is because of the cosmetics.

The only advantage when bending sides for using a bending iron instead of a heat blanket that I can think of is that you can do a 1 off shape without going to the trouble of building a new mould. In every case I would be using a heat blanket otherwise.

[mqbernardo]

1. How much importance do you as a luthier place on the planning stage of making an instrument?
2. Do you ever go back and change your idea midway through the building process?
3. Does it matter significantly if you use a wood grade that is a bit lower than 'AAA' or similar?
4. Advantages of using a bending iron instead of a mould/heat blanket method for bending sides?

Hi cookie! I´m also new here, and new to lutherie (i´ve assisted in the construction of a concert classical guitar and am building my 1st one on my own, plus i have ruined some tops and sides along the way...), so while i don´t have the expertise, i think i can sympathise with your case.
1 - i tend to over-emphasize planning - i mean, i stay awake at night in bed thinking of ways to cut and glue dentellones - but i´ve found out that with my level of experience it doesn´t always pay off. Besides, every top (every piece of wood, actually) is different and will require you to adapt to it in order to take the most out of it (the most poetically inclined may say the top will let you know what to do and don´t) - and that also requires experience. Romanillos talked about intuition guided by experience, i think he is very much correct.
2 - just on my 1st one, not able to comment. still i think it would depend on what you mean with "idea".
3 - i think what was needed has been said. it´s a real pain in the @55 to thickness a top with severe run-out or knotty wood with some hand planes (it also depends on your technique and plane quality and set-up, of course). If the top is to warped or not properly seasoned you could also get problems. I´d go with what Kim said and try to avoid severe run-out or too floppy.
4 - i just use a bending iron. it´s kind of arcane and i like it. also, you can adapt to any kind of plantilla. your fingers might not like it, though...

cheers and good luck in the lutheire voyage.
Miguel.

[kiwigeo]

Planning is the best way to avoid f^%%%% ups. f&&&& ups take alot of the fun out of luthiery and can cost you money.

[ozziebluesman]

I'm with a good plan too! I think you need to have each of the stages firmly in your mind and chances are you will build a great guitar. I have flown by the seat of my pants building guitars but it's hit an miss. Sometimes your lucky, sometimes your not.

As a backing musician years ago it was always so good to have an artist's charts before a festival performance and that way I could give them my best. I remember backing Jimmy Little (wonderful man) many moons ago and he didn't send any music charts. We are on stage, first tune in front of 4000 people and he sombers over to me and says the first song is in Bb Al. The band starts out nicely in Bb and the crowd is going wild and Jimmy sombers over on stage again and says, sorry Al, we should be in D. That was a rough modulation but the crowd loved him, the gig was a hoot and it was a pleasure to work with him.

Research all your stages and read as much as possible on lutherie.

Cheers

Alan

[Clancy]

Planning?
What's that??

Oh yeah,
The "guitar your building" is what happens while you're busy making plans.


Enjoy the build Cookie Man!

[Cookie man]

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

I have another question: What is your opinion of tap tuning/tap tone? I've read and heard that it's a sort of lutherie 'voodoo' and that it doesn't mean much in terms of the overall sound.

What do you think?? is he right, or is there something particularly significant about it?
Also, what exactly is runout?
and...is it more economical to make your own jigs and tools, where possible, instead of buying them already made for you?

Thanks again fellas

[kiwigeo]

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

I have another question: What is your opinion of tap tuning/tap tone? I've read and heard that it's a sort of lutherie 'voodoo' and that it doesn't mean much in terms of the overall sound.

What do you think?? is he right, or is there something particularly significant about it?
Also, what exactly is runout?
and...is it more economical to make your own jigs and tools, where possible, instead of buying them already made for you?

Thanks again fellas

1. Tap tuning/tap tone. I find it useful to keep tabs on how acoustic characteristics of a top are changing as I thickness and brace same. It's not something you can learn straight away after reading a book on the subject. One must keep in mind that what youre doing is working with a free plate and that once the top is attached to the sides of the guitar the sound of the top is going to change. I wouldn't call it "voodoo"...just not fully understood by most people (myself included).
2. What is runout? Use the forum's search function and you'll find it's been discussed in several threads.
3. Making your own jigs and tools is usually going to be cheaper than buying them ready made up. I'm short on time and can afford to buy alot of my jigs and tools so thats what I do.

Cheers Martin

[Allen]

Tap tuning is not something that I do in respect to getting a pitch that I want, but more getting a response that I want. And the only way of learning it is by experience.

Runout is when the grain is either entering or exiting the surface of the wood instead of being dead straight from end to end. Any wood that has a curly figure is going to have extreme runout in both directions. That's what give the look.

Really depends on the jig you are talking about. Some are just so much better made from a commercial enterprise for the price that I could ever hope to do at home. Others are so specialised for the way I do things that the only way to get one is to make it myself.