Benefits of age?

[Nick]

Just a curiosity question. I've seen timbers advertised as 'old' & the price has been quite a bit higher than the 'non old' timber of the same species (such as "30 year old Aged Spruce" e.t.c). Once a timber has dried to a stable level, what is seen by members here, as being the advantage of premium priced aged timber? Apart from the fact that by sitting on a ventilated/humidity controlled shelf it has probably dried below 4-6% so has well stabilised (which is probably negated when the guitar is taken out of it's case or used in different locations), I just wondered what structural/physical advantage, if any, this wood has to warrant the extra cost. Is it just a selling point or does it have valid scientific reasons behind the boast?
I'm not knocking anybody that prefers to build using only 'aged' woods, believe me I've never really given it much thought up until just now, but the question popped into my head when I saw some advertised & thought it may make a good topic to discuss.

[charangohabsburg]

1. I have no preference of building with really old woods - I just don't have them!
2. I was told that once the water has gone there still was the resin with a certain drying potential. I don't know how much weight dried resins save compared to not dried resins - I doubt it could be significant, but maybe it is.
3. Maybe dried resins have other effects on the wood, such as slower humidity exchange.

When a few years ago I bought my first neck blanks (Cedar = Cedrela odorata) I was concerned about getting this relatively thick wood reasonably dry, and of course I wanted to know when it was dry and stable. For this I weighed the blanks in more or less regular intervals. No scientific work at all because I only weighed all the blanks (first 10, then 20, now 30) every few months and did not keep record of the measurements of only 1 or 2 neck blanks in between . But still, I can say that after three years weight go much less up & down when RH changes than after just one and two years. I have NO idea how it is with much older wood, if it gets considerably more stable after 30 instead of 10 years, or if this is just one myth more. I also don't know about time span wood requires to release internal tensions, which of course is only necessary with inferior wood.

[Steve]

Do you reckon that there's an element of association with diminishing resources? Timber sourced a long time ago comes from an era of more big/slow-grown trees to go around, perhaps even virgin scrub. In contrast, today foresters are looking at supplying increasing demand for timber, and moving back into areas after a shorter time, so younger, faster grown timber.
This is certainly the case in Australia, not sure about the home of spruce. Whether this translates into better wood quality & higher prices is debatable.

[charangohabsburg]

[...] Timber sourced a long time ago comes from an era of more big/slow-grown trees [...] not sure about the home of spruce.

No. For a "high quality" * spruce top (which also means tight grain) you anyway need an old tree (about 200 - 400 years old) where 30 years more or less hardly matter at all if you don't want the sapwood (I know, some want it and even claim it to be superior than the heartwood, others don't want it - sometimes there is no colour difference at all between sapwood and heartwood of spruce, but mostly there is a slight difference which makes it to be a non - master grade).

Talking of pricing, I am observing that aesthetics play a much greater role than workability, stability and sound characteristics which, in this order are increasingly more difficult to quantify. I have also observed that old "tonewood" (unless it is a visually spectacular wood) does not fetch prices which would pay for storage and interest of all those years it sat on a shelf.

* On the one hand I am convinced that "poor woods" can be used to make great instruments
but on the other hand, me myself probably would rather turn "great wood" into poor instruments!

[Tod Gilding]

"On the one hand I am convinced that "poor woods" can be used to make great instruments"

Yep, I have seen and played many

"but on the other hand, me myself probably would rather turn "great wood" into poor instruments"

Yep, I have seen and played many

[Kamusur]

Certainly feel stiff as a board most mornings and Ive been drying out on a shelf for over 30 years but a lot of people reckon i'm not worth tuppence

Steve

[christian]

Great topic Nick !! I must say i have pondered on this more than once.
my first question is how can anyone prove the timber is aged, and do they douse it in vinegar rub a bit of salt and pepper it and hang it up like aged beef to mature ?
I personally think its a bit of a marketing ploy, to make you pay more.
There is definetely merit in knowing as much as you can about the timber you use, where its from, what size tree, its actual species , when and how it was cut and how long its been drying, For you the Luthier to make the best and most informed decisions when ready to use it.
This is one of the reasons I only use locally grown or Native timber these days, I can control so many of these factors.
In the process I've built up good relationships with timber merchants and millers, they now know exactly what my guitar specifics and expectations are.
does age matter ?
on a daily basis I probably use the oldest working timber in the world, Ancient Kauri , Swamp Kauri and what I call new or modern Kauri, and even though the timber is very old and in some cases this is its 4th life,
that doesn't mean its naturally going to be great, infact alot of it simply isn't suitable for instruments, for instance if its to dry and brittle and there is no spring or life left in the wood, you want
"LIVE" wood what ever the age is.
I reckon the biggest factor to fuss over are the specific properties of the chosen timber, soft,hard,stiff,weak,dense,durable etc , and how you can work with and bring out the very best in the timber whatever you build out of it.
Antonio Stradivarius was a genius but also fortunate to marry into wealth ,he could go and select his shady north facing swiss spruce tree and cut it and dry it exactly as wanted, thats a massive advantage that we don't really have.
we pretty much get what we are given and like it.
Did he further his amazing timber quality by somehow treating his spruce tops with borax and other minerals ?
I think yeah he did !!! cause he had the means, and like us obsessed ,striving to create the very best instrument he could.

kinda wandered off topic a little there folks but its all food for thought.

Cheers,

Christian.

[jeffhigh]

I think we have to differentiate between wood from old trees, which may have different characteristics from new growth timber, and wood which has been cut and stored for a long time after felling.

Nick was asking after the latter situation.

As we have talked about before with a lot of good input from Kim, seasoning wood in the sense of letting it go though cycles of dry and wet rather than just constant atmospheric RH does seem to have some benefit in stability.

But personally, I would not pay more for a luthiers stock of 30 yr old wood just because of the time in storage, only if the original quality of the timber exceeded what is available today.

You may just be ending up with the poorer quality wood that he did not get around to using.

[christian]

Just in addition to my rambling above,
ive attached some pics that may be of interest it illustrates clearly the grain and colour differences of the three types of kauri i use.
one of these days i'll get around to documenting and recording the tap tones of some of our native timbers, would be great to hear side by side comparisons, you guys could add your own timbers could be a great resource, and open up loads of discussions on potential new couplings of instrument timbers.

Cheers,

Christian