What is wrong with this Martin Guitar

[Kamusur]

The neck was set by the Martin worker whose record is 10 in an hour!
Checkout the Times article.

Steve

[DarwinStrings]

The neck was set by the Martin worker whose record is 10 in an hour!
Checkout the Times article.

Steve

Now that is a great way to encourage quality work and attention to detail. Do you reckon they were having bets on the day as to who could whack on the most bridges in a hour.

Jim

[kiwigeo]

It had crossed my mind it could be a fake. But the serial number checked out with the label and it all looked very Martin, we found the number on their web site. Came in an original Martin case. Could all be fake of course and serial number could be copied but apart from the bridge it was a nicely made guitar with solid top and mahogany back and sides and ebony fretboard. Anyway, who knows, at least the bridge pins fit properly now.
Dom

You can buy Chinese made Gibsons on ebay.....complete with Gibson Gold Warranty.

[woodrat]

People are stupid,

I have a Mate that has a shrine dedicated to Cole Clarke, I've been making and repairing Guitars for a while now, He won't even aknowledge any guitar that does'nt have a Cole clarke label on it , I was showing a mate a Cutom Tele I made for a pro muso , his reply was" Why did'nt he buy the Cole clarke one"!!!! with that sort of one eyed brand loyalty what can you do , this poor bastard has either never looked inside his fat chick , or never looked inside a handmade one to see the Difference! These are the sorts of people that see a brand go blind and part with their cash oblivious to the plastic nut , saddle, bridge pins and 3 inch action . it must be good cause it carries a brand name , doesn't mattter that it's made from laminex and plywood with the bridge 7 mm off centre .

We as hand builders need to look after and cherish those who come to us for what we know are instruments with a soul , made for sound , with pride .

Paul.

This is very SAD but TRUE Paul...Many people will not believe their ears and eyes when they see and play a hand made guitar, those people then go and buy something with a brand name on it because they think that it MUST be better that what "some bloke can make at home". It is nice to see though that there are people who do trust their eyes and ears and they are the ones who support hand builders like many of us on this forum.

John

[Daniel_M]

You are right Paul, I went to a large music store to buy a maton 808 - the tommy emmanuel signature series. It retails for about $3K. Not because I like maton's particularly, but because I am huge tommy fan and I am at that point where I could do it. I picked it up looked inside and over the instrument, shook my head and walked out. Got back to the workshop and started to draw up plans using an old (70's) 808 we have for a rebuild and dug out my stores of qld maple.

[kiwigeo]

You are right Paul, I went to a large music store to buy a maton 808 - the tommy emmanuel signature series. It retails for about $3K. Not because I like maton's particularly, but because I am huge tommy fan and I am at that point where I could do it. I picked it up looked inside and over the instrument, shook my head and walked out. Got back to the workshop and started to draw up plans using an old (70's) 808 we have for a rebuild and dug out my stores of qld maple.

I recently did an action job on a Diesel Mini Maton...the top of the range version of this guitar. The bracing looked like it had been rough cut with a chanin saw and then bunged in with no attempt made to at least sand off the fur. Rough as guts IMHO and I would expect better for the price paid for the instrument.

[Dominic]

I recently did an action job on a Diesel Mini Maton...the top of the range version of this guitar. The bracing looked like it had been rough cut with a chanin saw and then bunged in with no attempt made to at least sand off the fur. Rough as guts IMHO and I would expect better for the price paid for the instrument.

I think this is just the sad fact for many Australian manufacturers. Compeating with low cost places in Asia (and given the often stupid people buying guitars as mentioned) time savings like cutting braces with a chain saw and not sanding the fur are the only way to keep costs down and remain competitive. Imagine having to pay yourself a decent hourly wage for your work, rent power etc, plus make a profit and ask yourself where you could save some time in the process. I stick my hand in every guitar I see and have never felt smooth sanded braces on any newer factory guitar so they have obviously all had the same idea for cost cutting.
Dom

[kiwigeo]

I think this is just the sad fact for many Australian manufacturers. Compeating with low cost places in Asia (and given the often stupid people buying guitars as mentioned) time savings like cutting braces with a chain saw and not sanding the fur are the only way to keep costs down and remain competitive. Imagine having to pay yourself a decent hourly wage for your work, rent power etc, plus make a profit and ask yourself where you could save some time in the process. I stick my hand in every guitar I see and have never felt smooth sanded braces on any newer factory guitar so they have obviously all had the same idea for cost cutting.
Dom

The Diesel EMD/6 retails for around $1000. I'd expect a bit better for that sort of money.....Ive seen better on factory built guitars selling for half that price. The set up on the guitar was pretty average as well. Maybe Im biased but I think alot of the Matons are overrated.

[Kim]

There would be few factory guitars with sanded bracing these days. Ever since they were all forced onto the CNC bandwagon just to stay in business, all that 'hands on' input stopped. Employing people to run around with sand paper to clean up would add costs thereby completely defeating the purpose of investing in CNC. I am not saying this is a good thing, but that is the way it is for companies these days, because whilst brand loyalty still exists and that loyalty can make the consumer deaf and blind, it simply cannot make them not consider the bottom line.

These days for a process intensive product that is made in Australian, 1k is sweet FA. To get 'more' for that sort of money, a company like Maton would need to move off shore..Perhaps we should ask if that is what we would really like to see before we start bashing them in an open forum. The fact is that Maton Australia makes a range of products to various price points, some of which are every bit as good as their competitors...but factory built is just that and to keep the doors open they must compete on a level playing field.

Cheers

Kim

[kiwigeo]

The guitar I worked on had REALLY rough braces.....if they were cut with a CNC then the machine must need some maintenance. Even if I cut my braces from my brace stock and didnt sand them theyd look alot better than ones on this instrument...it was rough as guts.

[Kim]

Have you ever looked inside a 'hand built' vintage Martin, Martin??

[kiwigeo]

Have you ever looked inside a 'hand built' vintage Martin, Martin??

No, but I imagine you're going to tell me the bracing looks rough.

[kiwigeo]

Anyway I'm sure if you actually saw the guitar I worked on you'd be a bit taken back by the quality of build.

[Kim]

Anyway I'm sure if you actually saw the guitar I worked on you'd be a bit taken back by the quality of build.

I doubt it...have a look at the images of bracing found on older Gibsons..start at page one and work your way through, but keep this in mind as you...a lot of people, some successful builders among them, argue that leaving the bracing rough sawn produces an instrument that is tonally superior..yep, their position is the exposed fibres of wood in rough sawn bracing and underside of the top work much like egg cartons do on a recoding room wall. They reduce reflective sound waves inside the box allowing superior note separation and clearer over all tone...But then the tree must be fed, so who knows??

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.y ... fdR-oKBpuo

Cheers

Kim

[kiwigeo]

I doubt it...have a look at the images of bracing found on older Gibsons..start at page one and work your way through, but keep this in mind as you...a lot of people, some successful builders among them, argue that leaving the bracing rough sawn produces an instrument that is tonally superior..yep, their position is the exposed fibres of wood in rough sawn bracing and underside of the top work much like egg cartons do on a recoding room wall. They reduce reflective sound waves inside the box allowing superior note separation and clearer over all tone...But then the tree must be fed, so who knows??

Yeah right..next thing you'll be telling me that a guitar with a traditional double half blind dovetail neck joint sounds superior to one with a bolt on neck

[Daniel_M]

Oh man don't say that - I love bolt on neck acoustics (seriously) ever since I did my first neck rest on one!

[charangohabsburg]

[...] their position is the exposed fibres of wood in rough sawn bracing and underside of the top work much like egg cartons do on a recoding room wall. They reduce reflective sound waves inside the box allowing superior note separation and clearer over all tone...

Doing the math we can find out that we can leave a fur of 2 mm in order that all notes including the harmonics up to 4 octaves above the highest note of a 24-fret guitar will still not be affected - except the rattling of dead insects trapped by the fur. Btw, four octaves above e''' (=E6) is 21096 Hz. If someone feels the harmonics in the 5th octave range above e''' are important for his sound perception he should go for guitars with no splinters over 1 mm length left.

Cheers

[Kim]

Thank you for the clarification Markus...but wouldn't that depend upon whether or not it was European Spruce or American Spruce being measured???


youtu.be/

[charangohabsburg]

What? Spruce? I don't know what spruce is!

[Dominic]

Its pretty easy to test the fury brace theory but who among us is willing to make a guitar with fury braces?
As for neck joint theories, there was a test reported in the GAL journal a while ago between bolt on, through neck and glued joint necks. The test was for sustain with the idea that the lower the sustain, the more string energy lost in the joint. Bolt on necks did equally well as through necks and glued joint necks came last. The results suggest that a bolt on neck with good wood to wood contact is better than any glued joint neck.
So don't worry Daniel.
Dom

[Lillian]

I vaguely remember a post that Mario Proulx made in a discussion like this that surprised me. The gist is that he agrees. He felt that rough braces (and maybe soundboard too) made a better sounding guitar. I can't remember if it was on MIMF or OLF. I don't think it was posted on his website. Now my memory is fuzzy about this and the MIMF is nearly impossible to search, but I want to say that he did blind testing and people could tell a difference between a guitar with and one without fuzzy braces. They couldn't tell you how it sounded better, just that it did sound better. Mario was using old spruce that he had salvage from buildings around him back in the back woods of Ontario. On his website he showed brace stock that came from a 100+ year old building that he had salvaged. Will that affect the tone, oh yes you know it will. So how much is old wood and how much is fuzzies? Don't know, but the impact of fuzzies is easy enough to ferret out. Try them on your next build. Don't like them, reach in and sand them off.

For those that don't know Mario, he is a Canadian builder who is popular with the blue grass crowd. He is an engineer whose hobby took over and became his day job. The last time I looked he was three years behind and had stopped taking orders and went to a reservation list.

[charangohabsburg]

[...] he did blind testing and people could tell a difference between a guitar with and one without fuzzy braces. [...]

That makes two guitars which of course is a great statistical analysis which makes Mr. Proulx believe (or at least say) the heard difference is because of the variation he built in consciously - which makes me believe he wanted to prove something.

[Lillian]

I don't think Mario was trying to prove anything. The question came up and he tossed in his two cents on the matter. He doesn't mention it on his website, its not a selling point for his guitars, just something that he does. Trust me Mario couldn't care less about how other people build their guitars or what they think about how he builds his. He was just offering his observations and you were welcome to do what you wanted with them.

[charangohabsburg]

OK, I have no idea how (with which words) Mario Proulx presented those results. With "trying to prove" I had the well-feared behaviour of scientists in mind who, when executing an experiment they will read the data in a way which supports their theory; they are blind to interpret the data in any other way. That's human and scientist have to fight this behaviour by a smart setup of the experiment.

Just to compare 2 (two!) guitars and believe the difference in sound was due to a building feature even he was not sure if it had any importance (that's why he made the experiment, right?), well this sounds pretty odd to me.

It would be great to know what exactly he thought (thinks) about this experiment and comparison. But if it was on the MIMF his statements may be undiscoverable.

[Bob Connor]

I remember Mario discussing this and I believe that he was saying that if you had a look inside a lot of pre-war Martins you would find evidence of saw marks and other imperfections (eg fuzzy braces) and it didn't seem to affect the tone of those instruments.