Custom Solid Body Nylon String Build

[musictomyears36]

Hey guys i was just wondering if some people could shed some light on this. Im in the process of building a solid body classical guitar from a old les paul copy i have that is no longer used so i thought i'd put it to good use.

My question is, im looking to install two piezo pickups embeded into the body(i will do tests to find the sweet spots) running to a external or internal (haven't decided yet) preamp while using high tension nylon string so i can still achieve low action. would something like this be possible?

All in all, it would be something similar to a Gibson CEC guitar but on a les paul shaped guitar and using the electric guitars neck as im not a big fan of the wide classical necks.

Thank you in advance to all who contribute to this build

Cheers

Michael

[jeffhigh]

the vibrations in the body of the les paul are not going to be strong enough to drive body mounted piezos.
You are going to need a piezo bridge to sense the string vibrations more directly.

[kiwigeo]

the vibrations in the body of the les paul are not going to be strong enough to drive body mounted piezos.
You are going to need a piezo bridge to sense the string vibrations more directly.

I agree with Jeff. Despite furious arguments by many to the contrary the amount of string energy transmitted through a solid body is stuff all.

The term "solid body classical guitar" to me is an oxymoron.....but thats just my opinion.

Cheers Martin

[Puff]

You might "get away" with using acoustic sound hole "dogbones'.
You may well not "get away" with the bridge depth for intonation change from steel to nylon.
You are taking something specifically designed to do one thing and asking it to do pretty much the opposite.
You may well end up with the heaviest classical yet.
Have you thought of converting it to a reso. Could keep the neck pickup and add
piezo for the cone. Still pretty loud unplugged.
And you would get rid of some of that bloody weight

[musictomyears36]

the vibrations in the body of the les paul are not going to be strong enough to drive body mounted piezos.
You are going to need a piezo bridge to sense the string vibrations more directly.

ever clipped on a acoustic tuner to a les paul guys? it works just fine.. acoustic tuners usually have 2 methods which are either piezo or mic, it has been tested and the guitar headstock does resonate enough for the tuner to detect the note so for embedding piezo's method, i think it wouldnt be a problem. ill go the piezo path and if that fails ill then go the piezo bridge way but wich preamp do you guys recomend for a nice nylon string sound.

Cheers

[musictomyears36]

You might "get away" with using acoustic sound hole "dogbones'.
You may well not "get away" with the bridge depth for intonation change from steel to nylon.
You are taking something specifically designed to do one thing and asking it to do pretty much the opposite.
You may well end up with the heaviest classical yet.
Have you thought of converting it to a reso. Could keep the neck pickup and add
piezo for the cone. Still pretty loud unplugged.
And you would get rid of some of that bloody weight

i thought of using "dogbones" however im kinda leaning towards a pickupless finish because i have some art plans.

what do you mean by bridge depth? i dont think changing strings will be an issue at all as long as the distance between the inside of the nut to the 12th fret is the same distance as the 12th fret to the bridge, intonation will not be a problem. strings are strings.. as long as you tune them to a note their all the same frquency, no change at all!! however tension may be a problem thus why i plan to use high tension nylon strings or i can even use electric guitar strings as the piezo does not know what type of material the strings are.. all i have to do is use a nylon string preamp.

i saw Carlos Santana at Acer arena back in March and when he played Maria Maria he had something very similar.. he had Tele style solid body with no pickups at all, maybe a piezo bridge or embedded piezo like i mention.. anyhow he had electric guitar strings on it and sounded like a nylon. After that i wanted something just like it and thats why this plan is motion

[Nick]

the vibrations in the body of the les paul are not going to be strong enough to drive body mounted piezos.
You are going to need a piezo bridge to sense the string vibrations more directly.

ever clipped on a acoustic tuner to a les paul guys? it works just fine.. acoustic tuners usually have 2 methods which are either piezo or mic, it has been tested and the guitar headstock does resonate enough for the tuner to detect the note so for embedding piezo's method, i think it wouldnt be a problem. ill go the piezo path and if that fails ill then go the piezo bridge way but wich preamp do you guys recomend for a nice nylon string sound.

Cheers

What both Jeff & Martin were commenting on is the fact that you are replacing steel strings with Nylon. Nylon strings operate at a much lower string tension than steel strings so will lack the energy to drive body mounted Piezo's especially into the Maple cap of a Les Paul. Your Acoustic tuner works just fine on the Les Paul because you currently have steel strings on it which pump plenty of energy/vibrations into the headstock for the tuner to pick up on. Strum your guitar (un-amplified) and feel the vibrations in the body, change the strings over to Nylon & try the same thing, you will see or rather feel what we are trying to get at.
I also think you will have more sucess with a bridge style Piezo (I've been there, done that with a Tele) & some years ago Daion made a solid body classical (not sure if they still do?) but went with the bridge/saddle piezo, but if you're determined to try the body mounted pickups then go for it & let us know how you got on, I really do feel you will be somehow dissappointed with the results though, but that's just me.

[jeffhigh]

Actually what I was saying is that unlike an acoustic guitar where the soundboard vibrates with a significant amplitude, the body of a les paul, while having low level vibrations which can be read by a tuner, will not have adequate vibrational output to drive piezos at an acceptable level for amplification.
You will probably get some sound from it but not at an acceptable signal to noise ratio.

If you think otherwise go ahead.

Conventional pickups mounted under the strings won't work because nylon strings are non magnetic

[Nick]

Actually what I was saying is that unlike an acoustic guitar where the soundboard vibrates with a significant amplitude, the body of a les paul, while having low level vibrations which can be read by a tuner, will not have adequate vibrational output to drive piezos at an acceptable level for amplification.
You will probably get some sound from it but not at an acceptable signal to noise ratio.

If you think otherwise go ahead.

Conventional pickups mounted under the strings won't work because nylon strings are non magnetic

Sorry Jeff didn't mean to speak on your behalf & get it wrong!

[jeffhigh]

No probs Nick

[kiwigeo]

ever clipped on a acoustic tuner to a les paul guys? it works just fine.. acoustic tuners usually have 2 methods which are either piezo or mic, it has been tested and the guitar headstock does resonate enough for the tuner to detect the note so for embedding piezo's method, i think it wouldnt be a problem. ill go the piezo path and if that fails ill then go the piezo bridge way but wich preamp do you guys recomend for a nice nylon string sound.

Cheers[/quote]

It's all about string energy. Nylon/gut strings produce far less energy than steel strings. Its a problem classical builders have been trying to deal with since year dot.

Will be interested to see how you go on this one.

[DarwinStrings]

You might "get away" with using acoustic sound hole "dogbones'.

"Dogbones" that is a new one to me, do you mean those pickups that are essentially a electric guitar pickup that clip into the soundhole, that is the ones with magnets surrounded by a coil?

i saw Carlos Santana at Acer arena back in March and when he played Maria Maria he had something very similar.. he had Tele style solid body with no pickups at all, maybe a piezo bridge or embedded piezo like i mention.. anyhow he had electric guitar strings on it and sounded like a nylon. After that i wanted something just like it and thats why this plan is motion

If you are trying to copy the sound Santana was getting at the concert you saw and he was getting that sound without the use of nylon strings then why build with nylon. I may be wrong but I would assume that if the sound he was getting was a nylon sound without nylon then he was using a effect of some type and you could just find the effect and keep the usual strings on the instrument no matter what pickup you choose.

Jim

Someone please turn up the Tele!

[kiwigeo]

strings are strings.. as long as you tune them to a note their all the same frquency, no change at all!! however tension may be a problem thus why i plan to use high tension nylon strings or i can even use electric guitar strings as the piezo does not know what type of material the strings are.. all i have to do is use a nylon string preamp.

A couple of comments:

1. strings ain't strings when dealing with compensation for nylon versus steel strings.
2. the piezo pickup responds to vibration of a top or saddle on an acoustic. A piezo picking up vibrations from a steel string will sound different from that produced by a nylon string.
3. I don't quite understand how a "nylon string" preamp is going to turn a piezo signal from a steel string into one that sounds like one from a nylon signal unless there's some signal processing involved. Perhaps I'm missing something here.

[kiwigeo]

i saw Carlos Santana at Acer arena back in March and when he played Maria Maria he had something very similar.. he had Tele style solid body with no pickups at all, maybe a piezo bridge or embedded piezo like i mention.. anyhow he had electric guitar strings on it and sounded like a nylon. After that i wanted something just like it and thats why this plan is motion

I've viewed the video you uploaded to Youtube and it appears that the guitar in question has a tail piece and an archtop style finger rest. The video quality isn't good enough to tell much else about the instrument. It certainly sounds like it's got nylon strings on it. It's got a tailpiece so there's a good chance there's a piezo in the bridge.

[jeffhigh]

Perhaps he is using something like a fishman aura imaging preamp which basically blends in the image of a recorded guitar along with the signal from your instrument. There are images from various types of acoustics, steel string, resophonic, nylon etc.

[kiwigeo]

A better view of the guitar in question at 00:12 on this video. Headstock suggests a steel string and again I'm seeing a tail piece and archtop style bridge. If it is a steel string then the nylon sound is courtesy of some signal processing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dHje9eiQY0

[kiwigeo]

Ok here we get to see the guitar alot more clearly at 00:06 complete with tailpiece and archtype style bridge...and a piezo pickup fitted to same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOMd2i20 ... re=related

[kiwigeo]

OK this guitar is a Toru Nittono and from the pic you can see it's strung with nylon strings.

http://www.nittonoguitars.com/home.html

http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/I ... spx?Page=6

[DarwinStrings]

Well done Martin, you're a legend. After watching the clips I was convinced it was a nylon and searched to try to find the guitar but had no luck, nicely solved mystery dude.

Jim

[kiwigeo]

Well done Martin, you're a legend. After watching the clips I was convinced it was a nylon and searched to try to find the guitar but had no luck, nicely solved mystery dude.

Jim

The clue was found on a Telecaster forum!

[Puff]

A lovely feature of the CEC is the ability to preload the individual piezo elements for balanced or biased output across the strings. Parker had a similiar facility in the P 38 Fly.

[Kim]

Spruce topped semi hollow..My guess is that the 'hollow' is huge extending right to the sides leaving only enough of them to glue the top to so that this guitar resembles something akin to a carve top with very little bracing. That is the only way I could imagine you would generate enough movement in the top to drive an under saddle pickup and perhaps a couple of Taylor type sound board buds..... good luck trying to do all that to a solid body. No doubt it could be done but you would need to ask urself why? Its such a long way to go about it and as already mentioned you would be restricted in design and face intonation hassles because your starting out with a neck that was fretted for a particular scale length with steel stings and trying to make it work with nylon strings.

Before you charge ahead, I think maybe it would be a good idea if you read a lot and learn more about how guitars work. Then you will probably understand why what you have proposed has not been received with any real enthusiasm.

Cheers

Kim

[musictomyears36]

Ok first of all, great thanks to Martin for the find.. i searched for a couple of hours trying to find it and had no luck!

What both Jeff & Martin were commenting on is the fact that you are replacing steel strings with Nylon. Nylon strings operate at a much lower string tension than steel strings so will lack the energy to drive body mounted Piezo's especially into the Maple cap of a Les Paul. Your Acoustic tuner works just fine on the Les Paul because you currently have steel strings on it which pump plenty of energy/vibrations into the headstock for the tuner to pick up on. Strum your guitar (un-amplified) and feel the vibrations in the body, change the strings over to Nylon & try the same thing, you will see or rather feel what we are trying to get at.
I also think you will have more sucess with a bridge style Piezo (I've been there, done that with a Tele) & some years ago Daion made a solid body classical (not sure if they still do?) but went with the bridge/saddle piezo, but if you're determined to try the body mounted pickups then go for it & let us know how you got on, I really do feel you will be somehow dissappointed with the results though, but that's just me.

I agree 100% about nylon lacking to drive body mounted piezos, obviously i hadn't thought that far ahead.. and i really haven't so sorry about that, as for piezo choice i will be using a piezo bridge instead of mounting. thank you sir.

Actually what I was saying is that unlike an acoustic guitar where the soundboard vibrates with a significant amplitude, the body of a les paul, while having low level vibrations which can be read by a tuner, will not have adequate vibrational output to drive piezos at an acceptable level for amplification.
You will probably get some sound from it but not at an acceptable signal to noise ratio.

If you think otherwise go ahead.

Conventional pickups mounted under the strings won't work because nylon strings are non magnetic

You are right about that, as for the choice of piezo, i've made up my mind.. a piezo bridge will definately be installed for adequate vibration of strings.

not being rude, but i already knew that nylon are non magnetic. i was thinking of using them with full steel strings with a classical preamp. Thanks

It's all about string energy. Nylon/gut strings produce far less energy than steel strings. Its a problem classical builders have been trying to deal with since year dot.

Will be interested to see how you go on this one.

im sure you've already read it but ill say it again because you are right.. i will be getting a piezo bridge.

"Dogbones" that is a new one to me, do you mean those pickups that are essentially a electric guitar pickup that clip into the soundhole, that is the ones with magnets surrounded by a coil?

yeah we are talking about steel strung acoustic pickups (magnets surrounded by a coil)

A couple of comments:

1. strings ain't strings when dealing with compensation for nylon versus steel strings.
2. the piezo pickup responds to vibration of a top or saddle on an acoustic. A piezo picking up vibrations from a steel string will sound different from that produced by a nylon string.
3. I don't quite understand how a "nylon string" preamp is going to turn a piezo signal from a steel string into one that sounds like one from a nylon signal unless there's some signal processing involved. Perhaps I'm missing something here.

Sorry i wasnt talking about compensation, i was just merely saying that if a steel, bronze or nylon string was tuned to lets say A4, every string regardless of material will be 440hz or cyles.. however you want to put it. Can you please care to explain how different material strings would affect the signal being processed by the piezo?

As for your answer for number 3.. i strongly believe that string material for a piezo would not matter unless you elaborate on number 2 and make understand more however the preamp is what "shapes" the sounds, so all in all, if i am correct about piezo's signal being the same for all material types of string, the preamp will process the signal, amplify it and also "shape" it and then hearing a nylon string sound coming from your amp


Now id like to say sorry about the video quality as i forgot the camera in the car and realised it when it was too late so the only choice i had was to record with a crappy mobile phone camera.

Also much thanks to everyone who responded, please do not get frustrated with me as i am not 100% knowledgeable but please respond with information along with your answers as i'd like to know. However i will purchase a piezo bridge and go from there. First thing is first though, body prep (filling up the pickup hole, 3way switch, 1V and 1T pot holes) and a natural neck finish

[kiwigeo]

Sorry i wasn't talking about compensation, i was just merely saying that if a steel, bronze or nylon string was tuned to lets say A4, every string regardless of material will be 440hz or cyles.. however you want to put it. Can you please care to explain how different material strings would affect the signal being processed by the piezo?

The note you hear from your string isn't a single pure tone..it consists of additional harmonics and overtones. There's also a big difference in other sound characteristics of different strings....eg attack and sustain, additional sounds produced by fingers moving against strings etc. A piezo will pick up all these sounds.

As an experiment take a steel string guitar and string it with nylon strings.....you will note that it no longer sounds like a steel string. Same instrument..all you've changed is the material the strings are made up from.

Listen to a lute strung with gut strings...the plucky sound of the instrument is because of the very short decay on gut strings. Listen to the same lute strung with nylon strings and the first thing you will notice will be the longer decay.

Regards Martin

[musictomyears36]

Sorry i wasn't talking about compensation, i was just merely saying that if a steel, bronze or nylon string was tuned to lets say A4, every string regardless of material will be 440hz or cyles.. however you want to put it. Can you please care to explain how different material strings would affect the signal being processed by the piezo?

The note you hear from your string isn't a single pure tone..it consists of additional harmonics and overtones. There's also a big difference in other sound characteristics of different strings....eg attack and sustain, additional sounds produced by fingers moving against strings etc. A piezo will pick up all these sounds.

As an experiment take a steel string guitar and string it with nylon strings.....you will note that it no longer sounds like a steel string. Same instrument..all you've changed is the material the strings are made up from.

Listen to a lute strung with gut strings...the plucky sound of the instrument is because of the very short decay on gut strings. Listen to the same lute strung with nylon strings and the first thing you will notice will be the longer decay.

Regards Martin

i understand that strings consist of overtones and harmonics and i also understand that the characteristics of different strings change like you mentioned attack, sustain etc.. however you still haven't explain how the piezo does pick this up. How does it know what material string im using for it to produce a different signal?
The example you have given me are not are not related to what im trying to say.. your giving me answers for a acoustic instrument which if i was building a acoustic you'd be right in all your answers. The ball game changes here because we are now in the electric part of the field because my tones are produced via a piezo thus making it electric and not a acoustic.

Kind regards Michael