Custom Solid Body Nylon String Build

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kiwigeo
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Re: Custom Solid Body Nylon String Build

Post by kiwigeo » Sat May 28, 2011 11:47 pm

musictomyears36 wrote:
.... you still haven't explain how the piezo does pick this up. How does it know what material string im using for it to produce a different signal?
Kind regards Michael
A piezo doesn't have "know" anything.....it responds to the vibration it receives from the string..usually via the saddle or in some cases via the saddle and the top in the case of K and K type pad transducers. If the strings are steel the vibrations delivered to the piezo pickup will differ from that delivered by nylon strings.

Put simply......Different vibration into the pickup = different signal out of the pickup.
Martin

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Re: Custom Solid Body Nylon String Build

Post by ProfChris » Sun May 29, 2011 2:31 am

The question of compensation has been raised, but not explained enough for the OP's state of knowledge. I'm barely more knowledgeable, but I think it goes like this:

When you fret a string (say at the 12th fret) it stretches. This increases its tension, so it plays a higher note than simple mathematics (1/2 scale length = an octave higher) would suggest. This is why, if the 12th fret is exactly half way between the nut and the saddle, fretting at the 12th produces a note sharper than the octave.

Steel strings and nylon strings stretch differently. Thus your Les Paul intonates correctly, as currently set up with steel strings, but is likely to be some way out with nylon. You may have enough adjustment to fix this (if octave is sharp, move saddle back towards the tail, if flat move the other way) or you may not.

Before spending money on electronics I'd suggest you buy a set of nylon strings and fit them. Then try to adjust to get good intonation. If you don't have enough adjustment, then part of your project includes changing the bridge location.Or you might decide it's not worth the effort.

My only experience (as an occasional builder of ukuleles) is building an electric solid-body soprano scale. My acoustic ukes require about 3mm compensation on all strings. The steel strings, same scale, required surprisingly variable amounts of compensation - there was a good 4mm difference between least compensated and most.

Pete Howlett produces tenor semi-solid-body ukes with an under-saddle pickup under the name Uklectic - he has several building videos on YouTube which might help you.
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Re: Custom Solid Body Nylon String Build

Post by musictomyears36 » Sun May 29, 2011 7:39 am

kiwigeo wrote:
musictomyears36 wrote:
.... you still haven't explain how the piezo does pick this up. How does it know what material string im using for it to produce a different signal?
Kind regards Michael
A piezo doesn't have "know" anything.....it responds to the vibration it receives from the string..usually via the saddle or in some cases via the saddle and the top in the case of K and K type pad transducers. If the strings are steel the vibrations delivered to the piezo pickup will differ from that delivered by nylon strings.

Put simply......Different vibration into the pickup = different signal out of the pickup.

see what i mean..you said it your self, the piezo responds to vibration on the saddle, the material it self it was gives the tonal change not its vibration, the strings vibration will change from a nylon to steel in strength and sustain wise according to a piezo because thats what it only senses, otherwise because both the steel and nylon are tuned to the same note the string will vibrate at the same frequency thus making it the same signal the piezo produces but like i said before the only changes will be the strength of the signal and sustain.

The tonal changes you hear when using a acoustic or magnetic pickups is because..

Acoustics work like you are miking the strings and because its the material and not the vibrations that create the tonal change.. that is what your acoustic is amplifying naturally because of echoes in the hollow body. Different stringed materials sound different when plucked.

Electrics depend on material of the string, the resistance of the coil, what type of magnet is used in the pickup, the tone pot(because its cuts the treble to earth) and last but not least the value of the capacitor across the tone pot(lower value = brighter, higher value=darker) . Because we are talking about strings at the moment the example i will give will be about the strings. The more steel used in the process of making the string the brighter the guitar will sound because of the higher inductance created by pickup is more than what a string mixed with steel core and nickel winding etc.. whatever combination there is. Also string gauge will have an affect on the output of the pickup because its easier for a thicker string, lets say .56 to create inductance in the pickup than what a .09 gauge would



The question of compensation has been raised, but not explained enough for the OP's state of knowledge. I'm barely more knowledgeable, but I think it goes like this:

When you fret a string (say at the 12th fret) it stretches. This increases its tension, so it plays a higher note than simple mathematics (1/2 scale length = an octave higher) would suggest. This is why, if the 12th fret is exactly half way between the nut and the saddle, fretting at the 12th produces a note sharper than the octave.

Steel strings and nylon strings stretch differently. Thus your Les Paul intonates correctly, as currently set up with steel strings, but is likely to be some way out with nylon. You may have enough adjustment to fix this (if octave is sharp, move saddle back towards the tail, if flat move the other way) or you may not.

Before spending money on electronics I'd suggest you buy a set of nylon strings and fit them. Then try to adjust to get good intonation. If you don't have enough adjustment, then part of your project includes changing the bridge location.Or you might decide it's not worth the effort.


Sorry to say but your explanation is wrong, the strings do not stretch to create a note change, you change notes on stringed intruments because you are shortening its length thus making half way 1 octave higher, 24th fret = 2 octaves higher. I take that back you actually do stretch strings but it all depends on your touch and will only change notes by a max of 10cents depending on fret size.

Purchasing a set of nylon strings is a excellent idea and i had that in mind but got i drifted away from mentioning it lol. Can someone please recommend me a set of the HIGHEST tension nylon strings they know of preferably with ball ends, if not i will just tie them on the stop bar tail piece.

Cheers!!

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Re: Custom Solid Body Nylon String Build

Post by liam_fnq » Sun May 29, 2011 8:39 am

Ok time to set the record straight on peizos:

Peizos are a form of energy converter. They convert vibrational energy to electrical energy. the electric signal generated directly correlates to the vibrational characteristics of the string. If the vibration is rich with overtones and harmonics the electric signal will be rich with overtones and harmonics. If the vibration is that of a nylon string, the electric signal will be a direct correlation. If the vibration is that of a steel string, the electric signal will be a direct correlation.

What you do with a preamp is up to you. You can filter out the over tones and what not. You can probably even add them in with some fancy modern gizmo.

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Re: Custom Solid Body Nylon String Build

Post by jeffhigh » Sun May 29, 2011 9:49 am

Musictomyears,
For someone claiming to be after advice and understanding, you are spending a lot of your time telling people that they are wrong based on your very limited and flawed knowledge.
Not a great start to your time on this forum.

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Re: Custom Solid Body Nylon String Build

Post by Puff » Sun May 29, 2011 10:05 am

The LR Baggs T-Bridge could be a starting point but I have no experience with them.
Seeing if the intonation with nylon comes within the limits of a normal tune-a-matic will let you know if you are in for bridge relocation or not and a check with the manufacturer might give you a heads up on their performance with nylon.
A large consideration here is that with something as rigid as a LP you will essentially only be playing the strings and that could sound pretty sterile.
Last edited by Puff on Sun May 29, 2011 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Custom Solid Body Nylon String Build

Post by kiwigeo » Sun May 29, 2011 10:18 am

jeffhigh wrote:Musictomyears,
For someone claiming to be after advice and understanding, you are spending a lot of your time telling people that they are wrong based on your very limited and flawed knowledge.
Not a great start to your time on this forum.
I'm with Jeff.....you seem to already have the answers so I'm puzzled as to why you're wasting your (and ours) time posting up your queries. I'm nothing more than a serious amateur so I don't really care if you listen to me or not. Others in here however build stringed instruments for a living and definitely know what they're talking about.
Martin

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Re: Custom Solid Body Nylon String Build

Post by Nick » Sun May 29, 2011 10:40 am

musictomyears36 wrote: Sorry to say but your explanation is wrong, the strings do not stretch to create a note change, you change notes on stringed intruments because you are shortening its length thus making half way 1 octave higher, 24th fret = 2 octaves higher. I take that back you actually do stretch strings but it all depends on your touch and will only change notes by a max of 10cents depending on fret size.
Cheers!![/color]
Could I respectly suggest you go and read up some form of construction manual (Cumpiano Natelson or equivalent) before commenting on a forum where people build from scratch, so have to know something of intonation/compensation & string theory, before telling them that they are wrong when all of your ducks aren't quite in a row.You are correct in stating it is the strings open length that creates a pitch but you by the mere act of fretting a note you also have to stretch the string some to make it contact the fret top (You are deviating it from it's 'natural' staight line). Therefore you are patially correct in that fret height is one consideration but also saddle height/position & neck relief are factors. Stretch, despite what you believe, is also important & relevant. But alas, touch is not part of the formula.
As far as Piezo's go, yes they are blind to what type of string you have on, they merely interpret the vibrations sent to them via the material between them & the source. But as Martin & others comment, each string has a different tonal quality so a different "colour palate" A steel string has a completely different set of overtones to nylon, sure the fundamental note is the same. Nylon is lighter than steel so will not have the same inertial energy, the whole note, whilst pitched the same, will be weaker but warmer sounding...how do you know this? because you can hear it when you pluck a string & how do you hear it? Through vibrations traveling through the air. It is the same for the Piezo, it "hears" these different vibrations.
The example you give of how magnetic pickups work is correct but piezo's are a different beast so you shouldn't apply the same thinking to them. As you obviously know, magnetic pups 'see' the disturbance through their magnetic feild & convert this to electrical energy, Piezo's convert physical vibrations much like your ears do.

Don't take the stance that because this is an acoustic forum that we only know about acoustic guitars, many of us have built or been repairing electrics for a number of years & have tried variations on what you are trying to do. If you want advice, which the tone of your OP indicated, then take it. If you know exactly what you want to do then you don't need to run it past us, just go ahead and blaze the trail.
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Re: Custom Solid Body Nylon String Build

Post by Puff » Sun May 29, 2011 11:03 am

Here, judging by comments, is where intonation things may have gotten pear-shaped http://www.bestelectricguitar.org/inton ... guitar.php

The loose usage of words for specific technical specifics is not flash.

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Re: Custom Solid Body Nylon String Build

Post by P Bill » Sun May 29, 2011 11:16 am

Nice work finding that guitar Martin. I'd like to know more about it . I've used the links and googled a bit but not getting much. Anything else ?
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Re: Custom Solid Body Nylon String Build

Post by Nick » Sun May 29, 2011 11:20 am

Puff wrote:Here, judging by comments, is where intonation things may have gotten pear-shaped http://www.bestelectricguitar.org/inton ... guitar.php

The loose usage of words for specific technical specifics is not flash.

"The distance from the nut to the twelfth fret should be the same as the distance between the twelfth fret & the saddle" :shock: Obviously left string compensation out of the equation to make the video clearer!
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Re: Custom Solid Body Nylon String Build

Post by Puff » Sun May 29, 2011 11:23 am

Yes - didn't watch it all but when the 12th fret was called the 12th string.... :(
Stagefright?

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Re: Custom Solid Body Nylon String Build

Post by kiwigeo » Sun May 29, 2011 11:29 am

Puff wrote:Yes - didn't watch it all but when the 12th fret was called the 12th string.... :(
Stagefright?
He could be building a lute......
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Re: Custom Solid Body Nylon String Build

Post by Puff » Sun May 29, 2011 11:38 am

You guys use old strings for frets? Now there's a thought. Sounds like you been checking up on the Uncle Bob project. :D
Gibson doing lutes now?
Sorry just thought some bad humour might be in order.

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Re: Custom Solid Body Nylon String Build

Post by Puff » Sun May 29, 2011 3:42 pm

Michael took up guitar in the fourth week of September 2010 (by his own admission elsewhere). Please show respect.

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Re: Custom Solid Body Nylon String Build

Post by Puff » Sun May 29, 2011 5:02 pm

Hi -I've got a couple of Ovation style acoustics I want to convert to nylon strings. Should I move the bridge to sort the intonation - that would make a mess of the finish - or could I move the fretboard?
They already have piezo under-saddles with preamp and five-way EQ- whatever that means- so I'd rather not piss with that scary stuff.
This is not a piss take on the plastic back big lutes, I love 'em, steel or nylon.

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Re: Custom Solid Body Nylon String Build

Post by Puff » Sun May 29, 2011 5:27 pm

That was a question I would have liked to have had input on 30 years ago. There was no forum then -I tried my intuition on various steels and the other way with baritone ukes. The answer for me was to leave the bridge and sort the fretboard.

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Re: Custom Solid Body Nylon String Build

Post by Puff » Sun May 29, 2011 5:27 pm

.

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Re: Custom Solid Body Nylon String Build

Post by musictomyears36 » Sun May 29, 2011 11:38 pm

First of all id like to say sorry to everyone, i know you guys are helping with my questions and im just saying "you are wrong" when infact you are right about all it from when i read this...

As far as Piezo's go, yes they are blind to what type of string you have on, they merely interpret the vibrations sent to them via the material between them & the source. But as Martin & others comment, each string has a different tonal quality so a different "colour palate" A steel string has a completely different set of overtones to nylon, sure the fundamental note is the same. Nylon is lighter than steel so will not have the same inertial energy, the whole note, whilst pitched the same, will be weaker but warmer sounding...how do you know this? because you can hear it when you pluck a string & how do you hear it? Through vibrations traveling through the air. It is the same for the Piezo, it "hears" these different vibrations.
The example you give of how magnetic pickups work is correct but piezo's are a different beast so you shouldn't apply the same thinking to them. As you obviously know, magnetic pups 'see' the disturbance through their magnetic feild & convert this to electrical energy, Piezo's convert physical vibrations much like your ears do.


The part in blue made me totally understand why.. obviously my knowledge is not up to scratch and i am very sorry for this and meant no harm or rudeness by saying "you are wrong",
ok i will shut up now and sit in the corner lol.

Thank you to Nick for the "ear picking up the vibrations in the air" example because you couldn't have put it any better!!

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Re: Custom Solid Body Nylon String Build

Post by musictomyears36 » Sun May 29, 2011 11:47 pm

Puff wrote:Michael took up guitar in the fourth week of September 2010 (by his own admission elsewhere). Please show respect.
What the? how and where did you find that out lol

No need to tell the guys here to show me respect Puff, it was my fault and i shouldn't said the things i did, it was me that had to show the respect.

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