Fish Glue?

[TKAY]

Hi
At various times mention has been made of Fish Glue, is this isinglass as supplied by Kremers
and no doubt others ?
Curious Tom.

[Allen]

While isinglass would be considered fish glue, the one that is most common is far less expensive. The manufacturer that I'm familiar with is Norland. Available from other suppliers, but I'm almost certain that these are the guys that are actually making it.

[woodrat]

Thanks for the link Allen, Have you bought from them? ... and which products do you think have lutherie applications?

Thanks

John

[Allen]

I had made a query to them about getting a case but didn't pursue the matter. I'm not sure if this is one of those items that AQIS will have fits over.

It's the High Tack Fish Glue that you'd be looking at.

[WaddyT]

Yes, the High Tack Fish Glue is the product. It does have a life, but as I understand, it can be frozen without damaging the glue, unklike PVA and AR glues. Lee Valley sells the Norland product in Quarts if you wish to try a smaller quantity. I wonder, however, if it would generate the same stir with your customs as HHG does since it is a collagen product?

[MattW]

Here is a link to a local supplier for fish glue. I have not purchased this, or used it myself yet, but have considered it. Not too sure if its exactly the same high tack stuff you guys are talking about.

Its already through AQIS tho so may be worth grabbing a bottle to try.

http://luthierssupplies.com.au/product_ ... cts_id=884

[Clancy]

Better fill you guys in on some issues I had with Fish Glue obtained from ALS.
The following is in NO WAY is a negative for ALS themselves, in fact they have been extremely helpfull and considerate in my dealings with them over this.
Nor is it necessarily a negative for the product - only my experience with it.

This is an extract of the email I recently sent them and their reply

Please understand that this is not a complaint - I am simply after information.
Sorry if this is a bit of a novel but I'd like you to have all the information straight up.

As shown below, I ordered some Fish Glue from you in the middle of last December.
I first used this glue to attach tassie blackwood bindings to both a tassie blackwood OM body & a tassie myrtle OM body. (These bodies had been built with titebond)

I was so pleased with the way the fish glue worked that I used it almost exclusively to build the 2 necks.
(I did not use it to attach the fingerboards)

The necks are 2 piece african mahogony, gidgee fretboard with gidgee bindings, tassie blackwood headplates & back straps (sandwiched with your black fibre veneer).
I used a stacked heel on both necks (neck + 2 pieces + heelcap)

All this work was done through Jan/Feb.
The weather in Alice Springs has been the usual hot 30-40 DegC throughout summer, but humidity has been higher than normal - usually between 40 - 60RH, although we have had many evening storms where the RH has climbed quickly before dropping post storm (like you guys get in SE Qld - I'm ex brissie).

You can see where this is going, can't you....

So, for the last 10 days or so I've been french polishing these instruments using Ubeaut Hard Shellac.
Last week we had an extrodinary amount of rain for here, 5 straight rainy days.
And the RH went up and stayed at +85% throughout.
It finally dropped back again 4 days ago.

First I started noticing the blackwood binding starting to seperate from the bodies in a few places on both instruments.
I wondered if the metho in the shellac mixture was leaching into the joins and causing the fish glue to fail. I wicked in CA glue wherever there was a joint failure, pressed the joint back together with my fingers until set, and continued polishing.

Then the gidgee fingerboard binding started to seperate - no polish on those joins.
I pushed with my thumb and the whole binding strip just peeled away.
That's when I thought the humidity must have attacked the joins.

Now I'm even finding the headstock and backstraps have started to lift off.
That's a long way from the edge for humidity or metho to get in.

So I went to the off-cuts box & retrieved the discarded sides of the stacked heels.
Each join seperated completed with hand pressure alone.
Each seperation was perfect - no wood stripped out from either side of the glue.

I get that the joint needs to be clean with no gaps.
I get that the wood is reacting to the high RH environment and stressing some of the joints.
But I didn't expect the glue to be failing everywhere like it seems to.

The glue doesn't seem to have changed colour or smell since arriving.
When some glue is rubbed between thumb & finger it doesn't feel very strong to seperate my thumb & finger but repeated seperations produces lots of spider webby, fairy flossy, stuff.
The glue bottle has been sitting in the workhop this whole time, with temps between 20 - 35 DegC.

So...
Do you think it's the glue
or
the heat/humidity attacking the glue
or
the metho in the shellac polish
or
incorrect application (apply to one side, press together then clamp)
or
incorrect glue storage
or
???????
(You could add my joins to this list but i know they're good & clean & tight)

Very interested to know what you think.

Their reply

Thank you for your email. I'm really sorry to hear of the problems you are having with joins made with the fish glue. I think the likely cause is the humidity as you have already suggested, and possibly the heat is a contributing factor. I've used the fish glue a lot but always been in a dehumidified room at 40-50%, all other conditions have been similar, variety of wood species, tight joins, temperature and French polish etc but I haven't had any problems so I think the humidity is the likely culprit. The storage temperature is probably not an issue since we get similar temperatures here.

The Fish glue has mainly been used in Europe in the past so I reckon it hasn't had much testing in tropical conditions, if you haven't decided already to stop using it I would recommend switching back to Titebond.

I'll make sure we put some more comprehensive instructions on the glue from now on indicating it should be used only in dry cool conditions.

And I repeat, ALS have been very accomodating and apologetic.
They could have simply blamed the operator

Now an update,

The bindings appear to have ceased seperating from the bodies, but I did end up using a lot of CA to fix them.
I had to remove the headplates & back straps, clean & re-glue.
Yes, I was able to get them off whole as the glue, though still tacky, had not fully set.
I did not have to use heat or steam during this.

I have not had seen any separation of the necks or heels so have not had to perform any repairs.
That does not mean that I have full confidence in the joints.
I smeared epoxy on the back of the heel & all over the tenon and the fingerboard was glued down with tightbond (though I very nearly used the fish glue).

Just for reference, I have a used strip of gidgee fingerboard binding in the workshop and the fish glue on the surface is still tacky, not hard, not set

My experiences only, but I won't go near it again.
Will try hide glue next time

[Lillian]

Craig, I apologize if I missed it, but how long did you let the fish glue set up clamped? And how long before you started polishing it?

[WaddyT]

Dave White also had a Fish Glue release situation on his daughter's guitar under very high, and unusual, heat and humidity conditions. Fish glue is somewhat hygroscopic, so attention to humidity and heat levels could be critical. I would not recommend using it if you do not work in a controlled environment. Of course, I wouldn't recommend building guitars unless you work in a controlled environment, though I know many who do.

[Allen]

Building in a controlled environment is one thing, but it sounds like this might cause all kinds of problems down the track as well. You simply couldn't pick a spot in Australia that the humidity might not spike. If Alice Springs gives Craig a problem, then what are the rest of us faced with?

I'm sticking with my hide glue thanks.

[Clancy]

Lillian, all clamping including tape/strapping for bindings were left overnight.
It would have been 6 weeks for the body binding & 2-3 weeks for the completed neck before I started applying the shellac.

My problem at the moment, as Allen alluded to, is a lack of RH.
I'm having to run the workshop swampy for a bit everyday now to raise the moisture level!

[Lillian]

It definitely wasn't your technique.

Living in the desert can have it's draw backs and challenges for the luthier. We're still looking forward to moving back to it and out of the constant wet.

[J.F. Custom]

I know of complaints a few years ago with Titebonds "Liquid Hide Glue" for similar reasons too.

It was reportedly releasing under heat and humidity in the more tropical areas of Australia. I don't know whether the cause for it was ever discovered. It was being investigated by the importers directly with Titebond but I never heard the conclusions. By that I mean, if the application was perhaps too thick, or the additional ingredients to maintain/ascertain the liquid nature (I believe Urea?) was responsible or what. But some had joints separate down the track somewhat, post high heat and humidity situations. Not the sort of issue you want arising on a guitar and as Allen mentioned, an all too common combination here.

It put me off using Hide glue at all for a time due to the unknown cause "risk". Another luthier I know still won't use it due to concerns our environment in Australia is simply to harsh on a glue that essentially releases reasonably easily under heat and moisture.

Then again, most glues will release under heat and moisture... Just when that's important.

Jeremy.

[TKAY]

I certainly did not expect the response I got!
The query was initiated by Barber & Harris ,www.lutesandguitars.co.uk, on one of their pages mentions using a % of isinglass with HHG because of the differing protein propertys. It is a site worth looking at for a wide range of pieces of information,not just lutes and historic guitars. Is fish glue really what one should be using? Maybe someone got mixed up thinking it was the same as isinglass and it has taken on a life of its own.I do not have any experience to judge.
Cheers Tom.

[charangohabsburg]

Just for reference, I have a used strip of gidgee fingerboard binding in the workshop and the fish glue on the surface is still tacky, not hard, not set

Strange.

I bought fish glue some weeks ago and I'm using it on not so important things where I wish to have an immediate tack (rubs on nicely). After less than an hour it is set and dust will not stick on a leftover. After a day it's hard like stone. But my RH is still down (all winter long, normally until late spring) at about 30% to max. 40%. Maybe it will get tacky again with 70% RH after some rainy summer days. Of course, my fish glue is not from the Australian provider but still, I'll be careful and go on with only experimenting with it although apparently Romanillos used/uses this fish glue for certain tasks.

My experiences only, but I won't go near it again.
Will try hide glue next time

Sure. I wouldn't bother with fish glue anymore either, be it the glue itself or the difficult RH conditions. It really doesn't matter which one it is. Thanks for sharing your experience. I won't "jump right into fish glue" now

[Kim]

Another luthier I know still won't use it due to concerns our environment in Australia is simply to harsh on a glue that essentially releases reasonably easily under heat and moisture.

Then again, most glues will release under heat and moisture... Just when that's important.

Jeremy.

That is a strange position for him to take Jeremy. Has he ever actually 'seen' a HHG glue joint fail here in AU or is his concern related to what he has heard or surmised for himself? I am sure it happens however there is a mountain of furniture in AU built with HHG pre 1960's, some even hundreds of years old that has held together just fine.

My own experience with HHG in a joint reversal situation is that it does not really release any easier under heat and moisture than PVA however when it does release, it does so more cleanly making preparation for re-glue far easier and any repair more undetectable..The fact is that HHG takes 'more' heat to release than PVA takes to creep and PVA cannot be re-activated in situ like HHG can with a bit of heat, moisture and clamping.

As for Craig's fish glue drama it is a concern for sure but it would be interesting to know how much stock of the stuff ALS actually moves here in AU?....If they buy in a 54 gallon drum, or even a 5 gallon drum from Norland to get the price break they need to make it worth their while, and they sell 2 or 3 x 250ml bottles a month, and you happen to get the stuff toward the bottom of the barrel..well fish glue does have a shelf life and my guess is that its ability to function as a glue would be the first thing to deteriorate. By the time you could 'see' or 'smell' that something was not quite right my guess is that its bond strength would have left the building months or even years before.

Cheers

Kim

[J.F. Custom]

That is a strange position for him to take Jeremy. Has he ever actually 'seen' a HHG glue joint fail here in AU or is his concern related to what he has heard or surmised for himself? ...Kim

I have to agree Kim. As far as I've been able to ascertain, it appears to be conjecture - frankly, from someone with the experience to know better than to go on that alone. Perhaps he just isn't inclined to do the experiments due to being satisfied with his current methods/glue choices. In my younger days when I was just starting out, this influenced my decision not to try hide glue for myself - assuming his reasoning had to be sound given his many years experience. I know better these days than to take anything any single luthier says as "law", irrespective of their experience. It is simply another opinion to add to the melting pot.

I think this is another case of luthiers over-complicating matters or creating potential problems in their minds, that do not necessarily play out in day to day reality. That is the beauty of that which we have access to these days in forums such as this. The ability to openly discuss and debate ideas from the many different perspectives of many minds and experiences - to the benefit of all.

In any case, you're right as I also mentioned. Practically all glues will release with the right amount of heat and moisture. Some easier than others and with quality hide glue, it certainly does not sit at the bottom of that list.

Jeremy.

[WaddyT]

A couple of other points. Fish glue needs to be stirred or shaken before use, to keep it well mixed. It also has a shelf life of somwhere in the 2 year period.

[Clancy]

Fish glue needs to be stirred or shaken before use

I didn't know this.

A vodka martini on the other hand....

[seeaxe]

..... I would not recommend using it if you do not work in a controlled environment. Of course, I wouldn't recommend building guitars unless you work in a controlled environment, though I know many who do.

This is a bit off the fish glue track but............

With all due respect to Waddy's opinion, I reckon I should be able to build anywhere where I want my guitar to survive - so if it has to live outside a controlled environment then it should be built outside one. Reading that back, it doesnt make as much sense as I thought it would, but what I mean is that Auckland is a humid place at times, not as bad as Brissie and Q'land but I have small fleet of various types of guitars built up over the last 30 years from classical through steel string and electrics - most of the time they sit around outside their cases where I can get at them - none of them are falling apart or have the slightest problem - so why do I need a controlled building environment?

I rather think that my guitar will be at more risk if I build in a controlled environment then take it out into the steamy, messy, alternately hot and cold, real world???

Anyway, I've given the last few builds to the kids - and if thats not a definition of an uncontrolled environment, I dont know what is

[jeffhigh]

I don't have a controlled environment to build in, But i make sure that critical operations such as bracing the top and back, and gluing them to the rims are done at low humidity.
I have had one guitar crack where I glued it to the rims without taking humidity into acount.
A hot dry wind one day dropped the humidity to 15% and I got cracks between the braces.

I am a lot less concerned about high humidity.

[jeffhigh]

I have heard of builders having trouble with fish glue where they or their supplier bought in bulk and then decanted into smaller containers without stirring.

[Kim]

I have heard of builders having trouble with fish glue where they or their supplier bought in bulk and then decanted into smaller containers without stirring.

I can easily see that being an issue. I have some in a 1lt plastic bottle which I've have had for a few months. You can clearly see a whitish sediment has settled at the bottom 20 to 30mm and that it would need a shake or stir before use.

Cheers

Kim

[charangohabsburg]

Just for reference, I have a used strip of gidgee fingerboard binding in the workshop and the fish glue on the surface is still tacky, not hard, not set

Strange.

I bought fish glue some weeks ago and I'm using it on not so important things where I wish to have an immediate tack (rubs on nicely). After less than an hour it is set and dust will not stick on a leftover. After a day it's hard like stone. But my RH is still down (all winter long, normally until late spring) at about 30% to max. 40%. Maybe it will get tacky again with 70% RH after some rainy summer days. [...]

It's summer now and during the last 2 weeks there was quite a bit of rain and my hygrometer hit at least two times the 70% mark, and (miracle!) the leftovers I was writing about turned sticky again. Back at 60% those leftovers lost their stickyness.

[...] Of course, my fish glue is not from the Australian provider but still, I'll be careful and go on with only experimenting with it although apparently Romanillos used/uses this fish glue for certain tasks.

Meanwhile I found out (here) for what exactly Romanillos used (uses) fish glue: for the peones (little glue blocks) when gluing the sides to the top.

[Dave White]

Sorry - just noticed this. Waddy is correct, my daughter's double necked acoustic lap slide "unglued" itself at the fish glue joints. That was in a basement flat where mold was growing out of the walls after being in there for four months. Extreme conditions to say the least, If you want to be a glass half full person, the fish glue released itself, let the wood slip and move and then re-glued itself. I just had the "interesting" task of un-gluing it all again and putting it back to the original shape. With other glues that wouldn't have released the wood movement in those extremes would have cracked the top back and sides very badly indeed. Good job I used fish glue I say I still use fish glue.