Plek machine - your thoughts

[simso]

Im curious as to others opinions on this.

Weve entered into negotiations with plek regarding purchasing one, after I picked myself of the floor on the initial purchase price. Over 100k US, Im waying the pros and conns of such a purchase and giving serious thoughts as to its ability to recoup its price.

Any one got opinions on the unit. I know sydney guitars bought one 4 years ago. Im wondering if there even coming close now 4 years later to recouping the price

[Kim]

Just my own opinion as an amateur repairer and occasional builder, so take it for what you think its worth..

I imagine one would need to have a 'huge' turn around...I mean guitar center USA HUGE, before they would ever see half their money returned spent on a >$100k fret dressing machine.

On top of that, you would need to be sold that a CNC fret dresser can 'in fact' produce a superior outcome than a good guitar tec can with a bit of ali angle and abrasives.

We all know that wood is in constant flux so even with computer precision it would only take a smallish swing in RH for a cranky stick of wood to make the whole deal a huge embarrassment..not just for the money spent, but also in defending against a disappointed customer who is blaming your lack of expertise for the buzz problem and sighting your need to rely on such a machine to do the job that any competent guitar tec should be able to accomplish with just a few simple tools as evidence...That could prove more damaging to your reputation than any benefit in being able to advertise that your using the latest and greatest technology.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for technological advancements but never just for the sake of it.....it would need to prove its worth in the market at hand before I would ever allow myself to be swayed.

Cheers

Kim

[simso]

Thanks kim, your views reflect my sentiments exactly.

Modern technology is fantastic, and unfortuanltey its almost becoming a requirement of business to keep up with it or you need stuff like it to have the competitive edge. However the fact is we are working with wood. Some peoples hand skills are exceptional to say the least, and here in WA perry springs straight to mind, nothing but hand skills happening there.

I still am curious whether sydney guitars has in fact 4 years later recouped its original purchase price. One could say yes they have becuase they turn something like 50 guitars a week and have 5 employees. However, would they still be turning 50 guitars a week without the plek machine, so really what is its contributuion to there shop..and more importantly what value has it contributed to them minus wages materials etc

Dont get me wrong, Ive already talked with the company in berlin, discussed prices / lead times / training packages etc, but its coming close to crunch time. Yay or nay

The main advanatages I can see is the scanning of the neck and fret positions and using the computer to identify the high and low spots and actually overlay the inputed picture over an ideal template. And then obviously have a machine do the fret filing work for you, clearly via this you can get the action lower than possible by hand, thats a fact, and better than we can do it by hand...I accept that, but what client base exists, here in australia that could benefit from such a a low action, and is that base large enough to justify...

Mmmm indesicions, hence why I thought I would throw it out there

[Ormsby Guitars]

We are doing on average 25 guitars (repairs, setups, fret levels, refrets, refinishes, headstocks etc) a week, minimum. Actually, I say we, but its just me on my own now... a good week is 40 guitars. Its a hard week though

It takes longer for a Plek machine to do a fret level, than by hand the 'old way'. No matter what 'sales' pitch you use for the plek machine, there is another opposing pitch for the 'hand done with experience!'...

I spent half a day at Sydney Guitar setups watching them do one fret job. Their guy that showed the system to me didnt really even try to sell it, in fact was a bit blaise about the whole thing. I did three fret levels this morning, plus a headstock break, and crapped on to some guy on the phone for an hour about a custom... then went to lunch. Ok, they were easy fret jobs for the most part, no loose frets, and not too much wear, but none the less, it was a profittable day.

Alternatively, $100k (plus running costs, plus labour...) gets you two employees, for two years. What can do more variety of work? Hell, $100k to me = a CNC, six months, and a hundred and fifty guitars worth $2500 each.

I know which one would be more successful for my business.

The plek cant 'feel' for loose frets. So, level it, realise its stuffed, start again. Not good.

[DarwinStrings]

Hmmmm, my thoughts? I don't reckon I could fit one in my shed.

Jim

[simso]

Morning perry. You still havent found someone to work with you yet, that is mind boggling. Too much money in the mines mate, thats where all the good people go...

Reagrding the plek - That was my thoughts as well. As I said above we started negotiating a while back and now its coming to crunch time, and I was running the figures around in my head to try and justify the machine. In theory its magnificent but in reality is it necessary or just a really well spun sales gimmic, I had already thought of its downfalls, example loose frets etc, youve got to turn a lot of repair work to justify its price and realistically the price is offensive to say the least. And not just the price, but the interest on a loan you have to take out for it as well

Its coming up thumbs down more and more

I appreciate peoples honesty

[Ormsby Guitars]

Trying to remember back, but I worked out it would add $112 per fret level, just to pay off the machine over the loan period (4 years), based on the volume I had at the time, which was 2006 from memory. I seem to recall the total cost was $122,000, but that may have been including interest, shipping etc. At the time, a fret level was being billed out at $130 for private customers, and $91 for stores. So, it would have doubled the pricing to make the same profit. I just couldnt see that as being viable.

I see a fair few of the Gibson custom shop reissues that have supposedly been plek'd from the factory. They are either lying, or they cant set up their machine. It's Gibson, so I'm guessing both.

[kiwigeo]

Morning perry. You still havent found someone to work with you yet, that is mind boggling. Too much money in the mines mate, thats where all the good people go...

<======= And the bad people

[Ormsby Guitars]

Morning perry. You still havent found someone to work with you yet, that is mind boggling. Too much money in the mines mate, thats where all the good people go...

Ive got three people who may be interesting, just taking my time now to see if I want to make some changes or not (drop the majority of repair work, etc). Ive actually found Im a LOT more motivated working on my own, find telling clients to go away much easier (they get me talking too much!), and ultimately getting through the SAME amount of work as when my assistant was working four days a week. And of course, that means it's much more profittable, and I have more control over the quality. Maybe that's the way to keep things going for a while...

[nutsdan]

It only does the levelling, you still have to take the time to dress the frets by hand.
And it does not matter how level the frets are, it is still the talent of the repairer that decides the result with their setup.
Neck jig and a good flat leveller gives a job just as good without the $100k outlay

[Puff]

You owe it to your goldfish to buy them aqualungs and wetsuits before you splash out on this puffery Then there's the parachutes for the budgies and the ATVs for the chiquaquas...... and Mum's been on for years about a decent ashtray on her mobility scooter!!!

[simso]

The more I think about it Im in agreeance with everyone else,

Example a nice lathe is a couple of k, its a large enough purchase to make you think before buying, but once youve bought it, its not a big deal, whether its being used or not, but its an excellent """tool"" to have.same for a thicknesser jointer bandsaw etc But a purchase like this, first of alllets remember its just another tool in ones arsenal, but everything associated with it requires major financial investment from 1000 per month loan repayment to employees to run it.. So I think Ive answered my own question

It could be a pasisng fad, dont get me wrong having one as a standard workshop tool would be a good addition, but at the price they want Mmmm,

Perry I understand what you mean when just working for yourself again. When I was working just for myself at home in the "home workshop" I reckon I made more profit and less stress was involved than were Im at now, commercial workshop with two employees.. it makes you wonder sometimes. lots less sleep and so forth as well.

Anyway. Thanks to everyone for the input, really appreciated

[simso]

So just a little resurection, regarding the direction of this.

After much discussion about buying the plek machine its fallen through.

For info the cost was ridiculous, but I was willing to allocate funds for purchase (cost 125k). However it appears you dont get to buy the machine outright(well you do but you dont). To run the machine it needs to be networked to there factory, to be networked to the factory has an ongoing monthly fee about 2-300 euro, then everytime you scan or machine a guitar on the workcentre it counts how many per month and then an additional bill per guitar is issued to you the repairer.

Typical german attitude, its simply buying a franchise..

[rocket]

Forty setups a week, 2080 a year, is there that many guitars on the planet?
Rod,

[Kim]

Brutal.....just brutal Simso .....I have a bit of festo stuff in my shed, great German tools, but again simply brutal. Green and black plastic accessories that are priced as if they were hand calved from solid billet alloy....shop vacuum hoses for $400> yep, just a furking hose for goodness sake:roll:

I guess its all good if you can get it...but the danger of holding people to ransom with such hideous markup is that you invite competition and I think with the onslaught of copy cat products flooding the market from DeWalt, Makita etc, that Festools is discovering just that for themselves.....I suspect that if ever a Plek Machine really is a seriously viable consideration for a repair and set up operator, that their current business model will reveal the very same for them as demand attracts competition to their niche.

Cheers

Kim

[simso]

Yep, hopefullypeople will want them and then some entrepaneurs in china will decide to start bulk manufacturing of a copy unit, wouldnt surprise me if they could knock them out for a few thousand each.