Hi all,
Here is my first build that I strung up two weeks back, My problem this time is neck relief.
The truss rod works, when strings were off I could see the headpiece going up and down with a twist of the truss rod nut.
With the strings on ,they are Martin 12s to 54 light 80 20 bronze, with the nut loose the relief at the 6th fret is .18 mm
Cumpiano is saying between .39 and .79 mm.
Since I first put the strings on ,I had the truss rod nut slightly tightened so as not to rattle, to stop the buzz that i was getting with the strings I have the shimmed up the saddle to a high 5mm above the bridge,
Last night I loosened the nut to see if string tension would pull the neck over night, but it's the same this morning.
The only thing I can think of is to shave timber off the polished back of the neck either side of where the truss rod sits ?
at the moment it's a D shape and I could make it more of a V .
Is this the way to fix it ?
cheers Rob
Neck relief problem
Neck relief problem
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Re: Neck relief problem
Rob I think you have just got confused in your imperial to metric conversions.
I don't have cumpiano's book so I have no idea what he recommends.
I like to have 6-8 thousands of an inch relief and that is O.15 to 0.20mm
If you are sitting on 0.18mm you are fine.
This will typically increase over time and you can then tighten the truss rod.
I don't have cumpiano's book so I have no idea what he recommends.
I like to have 6-8 thousands of an inch relief and that is O.15 to 0.20mm
If you are sitting on 0.18mm you are fine.
This will typically increase over time and you can then tighten the truss rod.
Re: Neck relief problem
Thanks Jeff,
Cumpiano is saying between 1/64 and 1/32 for relief and my conversion chart says 1/64 is 0.3969mm and 1/32 is 0.7938mm, thats right isn't it ? My problem here is that the intonation is a bit out I think, noticeable on the 6th E and I cant lower the strings any more with this neck relief. but if time will pull it a bit I will wait and see. Also I should have made my bridge a bit higher and the saddle would not be sticking out so much.
Rob
Cumpiano is saying between 1/64 and 1/32 for relief and my conversion chart says 1/64 is 0.3969mm and 1/32 is 0.7938mm, thats right isn't it ? My problem here is that the intonation is a bit out I think, noticeable on the 6th E and I cant lower the strings any more with this neck relief. but if time will pull it a bit I will wait and see. Also I should have made my bridge a bit higher and the saddle would not be sticking out so much.
Rob
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Re: Neck relief problem
Ok, You Have converted correctly, but I will have to disagree with Cumpiano. that is way to much relief to aim for.
You fix your inotation by changing the location of the break point on the saddle not by lowering the string height ( though that does affect it too>
You fix your inotation by changing the location of the break point on the saddle not by lowering the string height ( though that does affect it too>
Re: Neck relief problem
From the Unofficial Martin Guitat forum FAQ
Martin factory specs for string height
You'll need something that has 64th" increments.
'E' Bass string action specification:
Measure from the top of the 12th fret to the bottom of the low E string. If the distance is between 3/32" (2.38 mm) minimum, to 7/64" (2.78 mm) maximum, the string is within spec.
'e' Treble string action specification:
Measure as above, acceptable spec is a low of 1/16" (1.59 mm), max of 5/64" (1.98 mm)
Neck relief measurement & specs:
1) capo just above the first fret
2) fret the 'E' (bass) string just below 12th fret
3) measure from top of 6th fret to bottom of E string.
Acceptable relief is .004 -.010" (.10 mm -.25 mm)
For spitball measurements, a standard business card is approximately .009 (.23 mm) thick.
Provided by Joe McNamara
Avg. string heights at the nut (Luthier derived) NOT Martin spec.
Not to mention.... those particular 1st fret clearances:
1st - .016"
2nd, 3rd, 4th - .018"
5th - .020"
6th - .022"
produce great playability without buzzing. Bryan Kimsey.
Martin factory specs for string height
You'll need something that has 64th" increments.
'E' Bass string action specification:
Measure from the top of the 12th fret to the bottom of the low E string. If the distance is between 3/32" (2.38 mm) minimum, to 7/64" (2.78 mm) maximum, the string is within spec.
'e' Treble string action specification:
Measure as above, acceptable spec is a low of 1/16" (1.59 mm), max of 5/64" (1.98 mm)
Neck relief measurement & specs:
1) capo just above the first fret
2) fret the 'E' (bass) string just below 12th fret
3) measure from top of 6th fret to bottom of E string.
Acceptable relief is .004 -.010" (.10 mm -.25 mm)
For spitball measurements, a standard business card is approximately .009 (.23 mm) thick.
Provided by Joe McNamara
Avg. string heights at the nut (Luthier derived) NOT Martin spec.
Not to mention.... those particular 1st fret clearances:
1st - .016"
2nd, 3rd, 4th - .018"
5th - .020"
6th - .022"
produce great playability without buzzing. Bryan Kimsey.
Re: Neck relief problem
How can Campiano be wrong?jeffhigh wrote:Ok, You Have converted correctly, but I will have to disagree with Cumpiano.
Martin
Re: Neck relief problem
Well he is one of the "worlds greatest living luthiers" according to that other site sponsored by the Little Italian Plumber.
But if he recommends that much relief then he is misguided.
But if he recommends that much relief then he is misguided.
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Nick
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Re: Neck relief problem
jeffhigh wrote:Well he is one of the "worlds greatest living luthiers" according to that other site sponsored by the Little Italian Plumber.
But if he recommends that much relief then he is misguided.
"Jesus Loves You."
Nice to hear in church but not in a Mexican prison.
Nice to hear in church but not in a Mexican prison.
Re: Neck relief problem
jeffhigh wrote:Well he is one of the "worlds greatest living luthiers" according to that other site sponsored by the Little Italian Plumber.
Thanks Jeff I needed that.
Re: Neck relief problem
That's great thanks,
the buzz may be the way I have dressed them, done it twice so far.
Last time I did it with a 50 x 50 hollow beam machined on a surface grinder with 400 grit paper stuck to it,
do you think it would be best to do with the paper stuck to the 16" radius sanding beam from Stewmac like they sugest?
That av string height at nut would be measured off the first fret while fretted at the third ?
Rob
the buzz may be the way I have dressed them, done it twice so far.
Last time I did it with a 50 x 50 hollow beam machined on a surface grinder with 400 grit paper stuck to it,
do you think it would be best to do with the paper stuck to the 16" radius sanding beam from Stewmac like they sugest?
That av string height at nut would be measured off the first fret while fretted at the third ?
Rob
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Re: Neck relief problem
Rob,
1. Is the buzzing only around one part of the fretboard? A Stewmac fret rocker or failing that a short straight edge that extends over 3 frets at a time will help you nail any high frets.
2. When doing the nut slots I generally measure string height at first fret with strings open and tuned up to normal tension. I aim for around 0.5mm on bass side and 0.25mm on treble side.
Cheers Martin
1. Is the buzzing only around one part of the fretboard? A Stewmac fret rocker or failing that a short straight edge that extends over 3 frets at a time will help you nail any high frets.
2. When doing the nut slots I generally measure string height at first fret with strings open and tuned up to normal tension. I aim for around 0.5mm on bass side and 0.25mm on treble side.
Cheers Martin
Martin
Re: Neck relief problem
Don't mix different nut setting methods
Either measure clearances with open strings or do the fret the third minimal clearance at first.
Either measure clearances with open strings or do the fret the third minimal clearance at first.
Re: Neck relief problem
When the strings were lower at the saddle I had a buzz, I had a few but the worst was on the 4th D string from the second fret all the way up to approx the ninth, it,s now doing it if I pluck hard on the fifth A string,
This may be a dumb question ,but if you pluck a string and it is buzzing on the next fret along,or on any fret, and you put your ear an inch away from the string would you hear the buzz sound at the fret or at the bridge area ?
cheers Rob
This may be a dumb question ,but if you pluck a string and it is buzzing on the next fret along,or on any fret, and you put your ear an inch away from the string would you hear the buzz sound at the fret or at the bridge area ?
cheers Rob
Re: Neck relief problem
Do you have a radius on the top of the saddle?
From the picture it looks like it is straight across.
From the picture it looks like it is straight across.
Re: Neck relief problem
Rob,auscab wrote:When the strings were lower at the saddle I had a buzz, I had a few but the worst was on the 4th D string from the second fret all the way up to approx the ninth, it,s now doing it if I pluck hard on the fifth A string,
This may be a dumb question ,but if you pluck a string and it is buzzing on the next fret along,or on any fret, and you put your ear an inch away from the string would you hear the buzz sound at the fret or at the bridge area ?
cheers Rob
If the buzz sounds like it's coming from the bridge area then I'd check that strings are breaking cleanly over the saddle and that sadle doesnt have any notches in it. From the photos you've posted I cant see any obvious problems with your saddle but its worth keeping in mind.
If a high fret is causing buzzing then the buzz should disappear as you finger notes higher than the offending fret. if the saddle is causing the buzzing then the buzz will generally occur regardless of fretted note and usually even with an open string(s).
Martin
Re: Neck relief problem
Couple of things to consider.
Guitars are meant to project sound around the bridge area, that is what they do when working well.
Therefore if you hear a buzz from the bridge area, the cause can be anywhere in between the tuner, and where the string end makes contact with the bridge plate. It can also be the string itself, even if brand new or even the bracing if glued in such a way as to allow vibration between components. I suggest you check to eliminate a few things 'before' you take off stuff you can't put back. The only way you will track down a buzz is to be methodical and you should be able to identify the problem without resorting to trial and error that sees you making nuts and saddles and filing shit down you don't need to.
Questions to ask:
Does it still buzz when I play each string while holding the tuner buttons....play the same string open and hold each button in turn, all six for each string eg; if loose the 'B' string tuner button can buzz (at the bridge) even when you a playing the 'A' string. If this does not identify the issue, then use a capo on the first fret and play each string. If they are all clear, then the problem is likely to be the nut. Either the ramp is not cut properly (angle too acute for the desired path front or rear) and you have buzzing in the slot, or the nut is not seating properly in its slot, or one of the strings is making contact with another on its way to the tuner post.
If the buzz does not clear with the capo, start fingering each string to track things down. It could be a high fret and if you find it, all well and good. But if you have leveled as you describe I would not think so. But it can also be a loose fret 'end'. These have a habit of being pushed down as you level, and then popping up again to cause a buzz once the pressure of the leveler is off. You can track these down by paying careful attention as you work you way down the neck.
It could also be the saddle ramps. Eliminate this by cutting a small piece of 'B' string and bending it into a hockey stick shape. Use this by placing the small end in between the top of the saddle and the underside of each string. If you don't want to futz around you can often find saddle issues by simply pushing the string sideways across the saddle to see if this eliminates the problem. Like I said, it can also come down to loose windings on one of the strings or even a loose pick guard or binding. Bottom line... my advice is to not sand, file, grind, cut, shave or otherwise remove anything from anything else until you trace the problem down. It can be done without changing anything but you do need to think about what you are doing, work methodically, and allow the problem to revel itself. Then at least you will avoid destroying work already done.
Cheers
Kim
Guitars are meant to project sound around the bridge area, that is what they do when working well.
Therefore if you hear a buzz from the bridge area, the cause can be anywhere in between the tuner, and where the string end makes contact with the bridge plate. It can also be the string itself, even if brand new or even the bracing if glued in such a way as to allow vibration between components. I suggest you check to eliminate a few things 'before' you take off stuff you can't put back. The only way you will track down a buzz is to be methodical and you should be able to identify the problem without resorting to trial and error that sees you making nuts and saddles and filing shit down you don't need to.
Questions to ask:
Does it still buzz when I play each string while holding the tuner buttons....play the same string open and hold each button in turn, all six for each string eg; if loose the 'B' string tuner button can buzz (at the bridge) even when you a playing the 'A' string. If this does not identify the issue, then use a capo on the first fret and play each string. If they are all clear, then the problem is likely to be the nut. Either the ramp is not cut properly (angle too acute for the desired path front or rear) and you have buzzing in the slot, or the nut is not seating properly in its slot, or one of the strings is making contact with another on its way to the tuner post.
If the buzz does not clear with the capo, start fingering each string to track things down. It could be a high fret and if you find it, all well and good. But if you have leveled as you describe I would not think so. But it can also be a loose fret 'end'. These have a habit of being pushed down as you level, and then popping up again to cause a buzz once the pressure of the leveler is off. You can track these down by paying careful attention as you work you way down the neck.
It could also be the saddle ramps. Eliminate this by cutting a small piece of 'B' string and bending it into a hockey stick shape. Use this by placing the small end in between the top of the saddle and the underside of each string. If you don't want to futz around you can often find saddle issues by simply pushing the string sideways across the saddle to see if this eliminates the problem. Like I said, it can also come down to loose windings on one of the strings or even a loose pick guard or binding. Bottom line... my advice is to not sand, file, grind, cut, shave or otherwise remove anything from anything else until you trace the problem down. It can be done without changing anything but you do need to think about what you are doing, work methodically, and allow the problem to revel itself. Then at least you will avoid destroying work already done.
Cheers
Kim
Re: Neck relief problem
Thanks for all the troubleshooting info fellas.
Rob is your workbench a cherry table? That looks a good way to add some honest wear.
Rob is your workbench a cherry table? That looks a good way to add some honest wear.
"Were you drying your nails or waving me good bye?" Tom Waits
Bill
Bill
Re: Neck relief problem
Ok , Thanks for the advice Kim ,I will go in tomorrow and have another serious go at it, methodically.
Back to Jeffs question, the saddle is a bit to straight and needs more radius.
And Martin the saddle has developed notches from the strings , is that what you mean by notches? I think I could have done better at the back of the saddle,the bone drops away to steep and possibly could support the string better
This is in fact a bit of a basket case set up ,the nut and saddle were both going to be replaced with a second set when I got these two rough ones sorted, and what I thought was a neck relief problem,
when I first started cutting the string slots in the nut I went to far ,so the nut is not glued in and is sitting on two slices of thin card board.
The saddle also has been propped up with two slices of .6 mm blackwood veneer and one .3 slice of cardboard.
I just kept raising till the major buzz problems went and thought I'd transfer those dimensions to a new set.
sure is a tricky bit this part of a first build
cheers Rob
Back to Jeffs question, the saddle is a bit to straight and needs more radius.
And Martin the saddle has developed notches from the strings , is that what you mean by notches? I think I could have done better at the back of the saddle,the bone drops away to steep and possibly could support the string better
This is in fact a bit of a basket case set up ,the nut and saddle were both going to be replaced with a second set when I got these two rough ones sorted, and what I thought was a neck relief problem,
when I first started cutting the string slots in the nut I went to far ,so the nut is not glued in and is sitting on two slices of thin card board.
The saddle also has been propped up with two slices of .6 mm blackwood veneer and one .3 slice of cardboard.
I just kept raising till the major buzz problems went and thought I'd transfer those dimensions to a new set.
sure is a tricky bit this part of a first build
cheers Rob
Re: Neck relief problem
Hi Bill, the cherry table was my workbench for the photo's and the mark I put in the top while my guitar jig was on top is the only honest wear the thing got,the rest got put in to it over the last few days.P Bill wrote:Thanks for all the troubleshooting info fellas.
Rob is your workbench a cherry table? That looks a good way to add some honest wear.
cheers Rob
Re: Neck relief problem
With a straight saddle like that the D string will be too low when the outer e strings are right and that will cause buzzing on the D and to a lesser extent on the A.
That pretty well describes your guitar's symptoms?
Make a radiused saddle before getting to worried about anything else.
That pretty well describes your guitar's symptoms?
Make a radiused saddle before getting to worried about anything else.
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Nick
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Re: Neck relief problem
My thoughts as well Jeff and also ditch the packing under the saddle, if the bottom of the saddle isn't perfectly flat then this will allow 'loose' area's for the packing (probably the veneer) to vibrate sympathetically. Too many pieces in the puzzle & it's hard to track whats doing what & also follow Kim's post, there's some good info in there. The trick is to work methodically eliminating things one by one & only changing one thing at a time. It could also be a trick of the photography but are the frets all properly crowned? The shot of the string action gauge looks like a few of you frets are flat topped (even the slightest flat area could cause buzzing) but as I say it could also be just the way the light is in the photo.jeffhigh wrote:Make a radiused saddle before getting to worried about anything else.
This is an excellent chance for you to gain experience at setting up, if it had all gone swimmingly then you wouldn't have learnt much!
Rest of the guitar looks pretty damn good for your first build though 
."Jesus Loves You."
Nice to hear in church but not in a Mexican prison.
Nice to hear in church but not in a Mexican prison.
Re: Neck relief problem
Hi Nick,
I think the fret tops are good, with the ends, I just did a small bevel by hand and under magnification the differences show up. I will check them all again though.
The bottom picture shows how much it was out, and the top one is what I got it to Today,still needs a slight tweek,
Interestingly with the truss rod nut loose the relief has gone from .18mm to .20mm
cheers Rob
I think the fret tops are good, with the ends, I just did a small bevel by hand and under magnification the differences show up. I will check them all again though.
The bottom picture shows how much it was out, and the top one is what I got it to Today,still needs a slight tweek,
Interestingly with the truss rod nut loose the relief has gone from .18mm to .20mm
cheers Rob
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graham mcdonald
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Re: Neck relief problem
Rob,
I suspect your problems might be a compounding of otherwise small and insignificant things. My suggestion is going back to the start and working you way through a series of steps. This is my suggested methodology:
1. With the truss rod just snugged up (with no real tension), a straight edge along the top of the frets in the middle of the fretboard should touch all the frets and should clear the middle of the bridge by no more than 1-1.5mm. For a standard thickness bridge this shows you have the neck at the right angle.
2. Fret leveling and profiling. I really think the big long bar you showed might be part of your problem. The most important thing about the fretboard is not actually the frets, but how well the top of the wooden fretboard itself is shaped. If that is right it shouldn't need much done to the frets to even them all up. The actual radius of the fingerboard cross section is immaterial. The critical thing is that a straightedge held lengthways along the board before fretting should touch it all along its length under the line of all six strings. To level frets I suggest a double sided carborundum sharpening stone from the hardware store, one around 20cm long. The coarse side is good for getting lots of fret material off quickly. the fine side shows you where the high, or low spots are. Then a rounding over fret file and sandpaper/polishing of your choice.
3. Set the nut. I have no idea about measuring this. I have never done it and can't see the point. It is very simple. With the strings up to tension, when the string is pushed down between the second and third frets (and touching the second) it should just clear the first fret. Clear by the thickness of a piece of paper, You should just be able to see a sliver of light between the bottom of the string and the top of the fret.
4. Neck relief. There is a lot of stuff written about neck relief, usually over complicating it. With the neck under full string tension, hold the string down between the nut and first fret and after or before the fret at the body join. The clearance in the middle of the board should be around .5mm. As long as it isn't flat on the frets it should be all right. There is where the truss rod should be used, to adjust the relief.
5. Action. Instead of metric I use 64ths of an inch here, as it is about as small a unit as can be seen on a ruler, and it is then a matter of altering the saddle by 1/32" for every 1/64" change you want at the 12th fret. 5/64" on the treble and 7/64" on the bass side between the top of the fret and the bottom of the string is fairly standard. The saddle should be shaped so that the 12th fret action gradually changes across the six strings.
If you take it step by step it should work, and you really don't need a lot in the way of expensive tools to do it
cheers
graham
I suspect your problems might be a compounding of otherwise small and insignificant things. My suggestion is going back to the start and working you way through a series of steps. This is my suggested methodology:
1. With the truss rod just snugged up (with no real tension), a straight edge along the top of the frets in the middle of the fretboard should touch all the frets and should clear the middle of the bridge by no more than 1-1.5mm. For a standard thickness bridge this shows you have the neck at the right angle.
2. Fret leveling and profiling. I really think the big long bar you showed might be part of your problem. The most important thing about the fretboard is not actually the frets, but how well the top of the wooden fretboard itself is shaped. If that is right it shouldn't need much done to the frets to even them all up. The actual radius of the fingerboard cross section is immaterial. The critical thing is that a straightedge held lengthways along the board before fretting should touch it all along its length under the line of all six strings. To level frets I suggest a double sided carborundum sharpening stone from the hardware store, one around 20cm long. The coarse side is good for getting lots of fret material off quickly. the fine side shows you where the high, or low spots are. Then a rounding over fret file and sandpaper/polishing of your choice.
3. Set the nut. I have no idea about measuring this. I have never done it and can't see the point. It is very simple. With the strings up to tension, when the string is pushed down between the second and third frets (and touching the second) it should just clear the first fret. Clear by the thickness of a piece of paper, You should just be able to see a sliver of light between the bottom of the string and the top of the fret.
4. Neck relief. There is a lot of stuff written about neck relief, usually over complicating it. With the neck under full string tension, hold the string down between the nut and first fret and after or before the fret at the body join. The clearance in the middle of the board should be around .5mm. As long as it isn't flat on the frets it should be all right. There is where the truss rod should be used, to adjust the relief.
5. Action. Instead of metric I use 64ths of an inch here, as it is about as small a unit as can be seen on a ruler, and it is then a matter of altering the saddle by 1/32" for every 1/64" change you want at the 12th fret. 5/64" on the treble and 7/64" on the bass side between the top of the fret and the bottom of the string is fairly standard. The saddle should be shaped so that the 12th fret action gradually changes across the six strings.
If you take it step by step it should work, and you really don't need a lot in the way of expensive tools to do it
cheers
graham
Graham McDonald
http://www.mcdonaldstrings.com
http://www.mcdonaldstrings.com
Re: Neck relief problem
So what does everyone else use as a relief target.
If I aimed for 0.5mm the guitar would play very poorly.
If I aimed for 0.5mm the guitar would play very poorly.
Re: Neck relief problem
To be honest I don't measure Jeff. I just play and look down the neck at the shadow of the strings on the frets and tweak as necessary.jeffhigh wrote:So what does everyone else use as a relief target.
If I aimed for 0.5mm the guitar would play very poorly.
Cheers
Kim
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