Lightest high quality steelstring tuners?

Dennis Leahy · Post by **Dennis Leahy** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:25 am

Seeing Bob's latest described as "featherweight" and knowing Hesh is hitting about 4 pounds, I know that one of the things I need to do is to find light weight high quality tuners. I think my neck weighs 4 pounds!

I used PlanetWaves tuners, which were engineered by Ned Steinberger - on my one and only so far. They have a cheap looking black painted finish, and they are HEAVY, but mechanically great and I love the string self-cutting mechanism.

I also really like the look of the "organic" button Gotoh (18:1 and 21:1) tuners. But, I suspect they are not light.

So, what's the best of the lightweight tuners? Or, the lightest of the best? (At least 16:1 ratio, and I will consider open back.)

Thanks,

Dennis

Hesh1956 · Post by **Hesh1956** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:42 am

Waverly is the best and they are about the lightest too.

Gotoh open backs are probably second of the quality/weight scale.

And Grover open backs are inexpensive and OK but also light weight. The nice thing about Grovers is that if you are a prolific builder and the expense of Waverlys is cost prohibitive you can use Grovers now and replace them later if you wish with Waverlys. The specs and hole patterns are identically.

The Gotoh 510 "contour" tuners are REALLY nice IMHO but as you suspected heavier.

Arnt · Post by **Arnt** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 3:46 am

I agree that the Waverlys are probably the best light tuners, they may be the best ones period. Go with wood buttons instead of metal ones to keep the weight down.

If you like the 510's, you should check out the minis with plastic buttons. Both the reduced size and the button material serve to cut weight; I have not measured how much, though. They sure are nice, my favourite tuner.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:56 am

I've got a set of Gotoh 510's that are going on my current Petite Jumbo. They look fabulous, with a really modern feel to them. These have the metal buttons.

I just threw them on the scale and the set comes in at 250 grams. I never weighted the Gotoh open backs that I used on previous guitars, but I'll take a wild guess that these are perhaps 30-50 grams more.

I chose the 510's this time around because I had comments from several people that looked at my guitars that I might want to look at a more modern style of tuner. They thought the open backs were a little old fashioned, even though they were on OOO style guitars that I thought suited the open backs.

Well, I thought that potential customers are always right, even if their not.

Dennis Leahy · Post by **Dennis Leahy** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:02 am

Thanks for the input Hesh, Arnt, and Allen!

Waverly's (and Rodgers) are way beyond what I would spend, unless I ever had a commission. I am even gulping hard when I look at the nearly $100US price tag for the Gotoh 21:1 Delta tuners in gold.

I agree that the open back tuners (or maybe it is the plates they use on open back tuners) do not look as contemporary. And, my goofy guitar designs do deviate from tradition, so for me the contemporary tuners are where my eye wanders.

Thanks for the input!

Anyone else?

Dennis

Bob Connor · Post by **Bob Connor** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:36 am

Our standard tuner is the Grover Statite Dennis.

Waverleys if the customer wants them and we like the open back tuners for their light weight.

And our instruments are fairly traditional so they suit.

The Statites cost around $50 in Australia whereas the Waverleys end up about $200 once you add postage.

Bob

Hesh1956 · Post by **Hesh1956** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:59 am

Well I just HAD to know.......

So I weighed a set of open back Grovers complete with all associated hardware and here are the results. I would have weighed Waverlys but I didn't want to know bad enough to open a new, sealed box but I'll weigh those nest time I use them.

From the pic below you can see that the Grovers save a great deal of weight.

Shane Neifer · Post by **Shane Neifer** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:08 pm

Dennis,

I just went and weighed a few sets as well.

Sperzel, cast/machined aluminum open back are 155 grams
Gotoh open back gold all metal also 155 grams (Waverley look a likes)
Gotoh 510 like the Delta series, large are 200 grams.

Hope that helps!

Shane

Hesh1956 · Post by **Hesh1956** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:58 am

Good job Shane!!!

I broke down and wanted to know what Waverlys weigh so I weighed a set with ebony buttons. Waverlys win and are the lightest tuners that we have discussed here.

Ron Wisdom · Post by **Ron Wisdom** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:23 am

Light may not always be the best route. A heavier neck has better sustain in my experience. Some pros leave their capo clamped on their peghead to add mass and increase sustain.

Ron

Serge · Post by **Serge** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:00 am

I have used 2 sets of perzels and love them, i'm about to use a 3rd set here, i must agree that they are slightly heavier than waverly's but as Ron said, i think it depends on what kind of shape you build and what type of response and sustain you aim at.

I love the waverly's on my Heshtone, they are light and the ratio works really nice and smooth.

Serge

Tom Morici · Post by **Tom Morici** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:56 pm

Hesh,
The Waverlys you show have wood knobs, the Sta-Tites metal.
The Waverlys with the same metal knobs would weight more.
My data shows 6.18 oz or 175.20 grams. (from Stew-Mac)

Tom

Hesh1956 · Post by **Hesh1956** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 2:08 pm

Good point Tom but this data does show that Waverlys with wood knobs are lighter then any thing else that we have weighed so far. If light weight and high quality are the goal so far Waverlys are leading the pack no?

I am not surprised that Waverlys with metal knobs are heavier then the Grovers - A Mercedes typically weighs more then a Chrysler too....

The problem with considering the weight of tuners and the very small differences between many of them is where the tuners are located on a guitar. Being at the very end of the neck there is a balance issue where small differences in weight do impact if the neck wants to dive when you let go of it or not.

If we were talking about say neck bolts it really would not matter.

Dennis Leahy · Post by **Dennis Leahy** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:20 pm

Thanks for the additional input everyone, and for weighing the Waverlys and Grovers, Hesh, and the Sperzels, and Gotah open and 510s, Shane.

Ron, I agree about neck stiffness and a certain amount of mass to get good tone and sustain (working from the writings of other luthiers, not from my "vast" experience), however, I don't want heavy machines at the end of that stiff neck, like a fat kid on a teeter-totter.

I made the mistake of making a headstock, then realized the tuners I wanted to use would not work, so I scrambled and found that the PlanetWaves tuners would work. I don't ever want to make that mistake again. I'd like to select a tuner (high quality, light weight, within budget), and design from that, and stick to one tuner for a while.

I know, I never said "within budget" on my first post - my mistake. I'd like to select a $50 to $60 (US) set of tuners. A bonus would be if the tuners could be replaced by a better tuner, if I or someone else ever wanted to pay for it. At this point, I suspect I'll never sell a guitar, but I want to build a bunch of them to test a bunch of ideas (and end up with a bunch of cool guitars, if all goes well.) A few will end up in the hands of family members too. I have spent SO MUCH money stocking up on tonewood that I just can't envision having the cash to pay for $500 worth of Gotoh Delta tuners for the 5 guitars I have started, and $1000 worth of Waverlys just makes my head spin.

I do plan to make or buy wood tuner buttons for almost any tuners (probably not Gotoh Deltas - what's the point in paying that much if you replace the buttons.)

Dennis

To get the strings to go straight from the saddle, through the nut, and to the machines, the tuners had to be stacked pretty close. The other problem I created was the hole in the headstock, which did not allow me to use tuners with a screw in that area.

Tom Morici · Post by **Tom Morici** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 6:13 pm

Hesh,
No dispute here with your statement of Waverlys quality and light weight.
I found it interesting if both sets had the same metal knobs there was a difference.

Tom

Hesh1956 · Post by **Hesh1956** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:31 pm

Dennis buddy if this was the OLF you would have to at least put a thong on your guitar.......

Tom my friend it still amazes me even though Waverlys are clearly higher quality then Grovers that Grovers can be had for 1/3 the price...... So I use Grovers on guitars with no intended purpose (most of them) and Waverlys when I can afford it (rarely) and if I know that a guitar is going to be enhanced by them.

I have used Gotoh 510s 3 times now and they are smoother then Waverlys IMHO and have a cool contemporary look too. The genuine imitation ebony plastic buttons are very nice too.....

Ron Wisdom · Post by **Ron Wisdom** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 1:46 am

Dennis Leahy wrote:Thanks for the additional input everyone, and for weighing the Waverlys and Grovers, Hesh, and the Sperzels, and Gotah open and 510s, Shane.

Ron, I agree about neck stiffness and a certain amount of mass to get good tone and sustain (working from the writings of other luthiers, not from my "vast" experience), however, I don't want heavy machines at the end of that stiff neck, like a fat kid on a teeter-totter.

Dennis, I WAS the fat kid on the teeter totter!!

Maybe that's why I like a heavy neck.

Ron

Dennis Leahy · Post by **Dennis Leahy** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:52 am

Is anyone aware of any CAD drawings of various tuners? I found some engineering drawings on Stewart Macdonald's site, but had to play around with resizing them for a while to get them to print out at the correct size. I'd like to design/engineer using CAD drawings, rather than have to buy a set of this and a set of that (which I can't afford), trying to decide what I can or cannot work with.

Thanks,

Dennis

BillyT · Post by **BillyT** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:21 pm

Dennis, I'm sure if you contacted the manufacturer they'd hep ya out!

Dennis Leahy · Post by **Dennis Leahy** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:13 am

That's a good idea Billy. I'll do it.

Dennis

Shane Neifer · Post by **Shane Neifer** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:39 am

Dennis,

I think that the Sperzel tuners would be awesome on your unique designed guitar. Look at the picture on my website, the set 3rd from the left are open gear. These tuners don't use screws to mount, they have a little tab that you drill a shallow hole for and that stops them from spinning. I am using a set on my first guitar, same as the ones I mentioned but I am changing the button's to black with the satin chrome finish. They would be $65 per set. Alternatively, open back gotoh's, like the waverly's Hesh posted, have screws in line. Gotoh also makes closed back tuners with the mounting screw holes in line like the tuners you have now. But I think the Sperzels would be cool and unique.

Shane

Dennis Leahy · Post by **Dennis Leahy** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:54 am

Thanks, Shane.

I just can't wrap my head around using a 12:1 tuner. I really notice how much nicer the 18:1 tuners are compared to the 14:1 to 16:1 tuners I had used (as a player) in the past. I have not tried the 21:1 Gotoh's , but I just know I'll love them.

So, I won't say no to Sperzels, but I guess I will be surprised if I end up using them.

I think I'll poke around the Gotoh site some more...
SG 510 (closed back)
SE 510 (open back)

Dennis

Dennis Leahy · Post by **Dennis Leahy** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 1:57 pm

Man oh man, there are a lot of variations on Gotoh tuners. I sent for a catalog, because I can only find the web-resolution JPG catalog pages, and cannot see everything clearly.

Now I see that the SGV510 (18:1) or SGV510Z (21:1) tuners have a screw hole in-line with the body, which would allow me to keep making my headstock with the hole in the middle. And, I see LMI carries some variants of these. (If I had figured that out earlier, my guitar would have used them.)

Another cool thing is that Gotoh has various post styles, including an MG (Magnum Lock) string locking style, and a HAP-M (height adjustable post with magnum lock.) So, other than the string cutting capability of the Planet Waves tuners, these babies do it all.
Gotoh Post Options

I wonder... Since Gotoh evidently owns Wilkinson: Is it possible Gotoh just labels some of their lower priced tuners as Wilkinson? And, since Wilkinson also has tuners with the hole lined up with the body, I wonder if the holes are spaced identically to the Gotoh's. If so, I could put less expensive tuners on some guitars, knowing I could easily swap them out for top of the line tuners later (like, if I ever sold a guitar.) It sure would be nice to put a $20 set of Wilkinson tuners on a guitar for my 8-year old daughter, and then a few years later (if she actually plays it) put better Gotoh tuners on.

So Shane, what is a minimum order? For example, if I wanted to get sets of:

SGV510Z MG GG L5
-or-
SGV510Z MG XG BL5

Dennis

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Lightest high quality steelstring tuners?

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