Gidgee storage & usage questions

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Clancy
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Gidgee storage & usage questions

Post by Clancy » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:24 pm

So I went to see my new mate "the tree lopper man" this morning.
He showed me some of the timber he'd sliced & some he hadn't yet.
I discussed with him my needs for good back & sides and how I'd be interested in the central cut etc, etc.
Then I showed him a gidgee fingerboard to demonstrate that I'm not just interested in large pieces - if the timber is right.
He chuckled, pointed to the back of his truck, said he'd just cut down a gidgee tree this morning & that there was some nice straight pieces if I wanted to have a look.
An hour & a case of beer later, I was stacking these logs the workshop.
Gidgee Logs.jpg
I have placed a gidgee fingerboard & bridge blank on the stack for reference.
I figure I can get a few of both out of this.

Since I won't be able to cut it for a while though, how should I store it.
I assume I still paint the ends, but do I leave the bark & sapwood on, or remove it as fast as possible?
Do I really need to get stuck in & start slicing & dicing?

I've only ever re-sawn pre-cut planks before.
When I do saw this stuff, to be wide enough for fingerboards, most of the boards I get will have need to have the centre of the heartwood in them. Is this likely to cause a problem in use?

Also, can the sapwood be saved & used as decorative strips (purfling or maybe even binding)?

I'm sure I've got more questions....I'll ask as I think of them.

(And I won't be offended if you tell me I'd have been better off drinking the beer, just a little disappointed) :dri
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Re: Gidgee storage & usage questions

Post by Kim » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:45 pm

Great score Craig.

I am no pro but there are a few things to consider. It's an arid grown wood, so shrinkage should be quite minimal cause it hasn't much water to lose in the first place. Still, painting the ends is a good move, pvc glue, the stuff plumbers use to joint pipes, works well for this, but I would not remove the bark cause you want things to go slow. I would stack the logs off the ground in the shade so that air can get to them evenly and they will never be in direct sunlight.

The other thing to consider is that gidgee is very 'hard' wood and the longer you leave it before resaw, the harder it is going to get.

Cheers

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Re: Gidgee storage & usage questions

Post by DarwinStrings » Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:24 pm

Hmmm best to get to them now if you can Craig, failing that all you can do is what has been suggested and keep your fingers crossed. As for having the "centre of the heartwood" which is pith and not really wood it is a bit of a no no, but you may get away with it if the pith is real small. Sap wood is not such a bad thing and can be very useful (am looking at getting some figured blackwood sap wood for bindings) like a two tone bridge or finger board if you like but a downside of sap wood is that it is susceptible to powder post beetle or lyctid borer, I have never had trouble with them in sap wood with a modern finish on it but have had to get rid of infested sapwood that was unfinished and have seen it in shellac finished furniture.

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Re: Gidgee storage & usage questions

Post by peter.coombe » Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:30 pm

Seal the ends immediately and store in the shade off the ground. Do not remove the sapwood or the bark, you need to slow things down as much as possible. Can't see why not to use the sapwood once it has been dried. I would not cut it up immediately. My experience from two Ironwood logs is that you get more useful wood if you let it dry in the log, but Kim is right in that it will get harder to saw as it dries. I cut one of the Ironwood logs when still wet but lost a lot of wood through splitting and twisting. The other log sat for years and the wood was stable when I cut it up and has made some nice fingerboards. Gidgee can be a pig to saw if really dry because it is soooo hard. I was once given a 100yo Gidgee fence post and man that stuff was HARD. Other Gidgee I have was not so bad.

I recently sawed up a 25yo Lancewood log and there was lots of mess and waste and blunt bandsaw blades, but a nice smell in the workshop. It was the smallest log from a bunch, but it was HEAVY and a bit of a struggle to get under control. These small trees can be difficult to get useful wood from because they tend to have lots of small knots, and sometimes the centre is rotten from termite activity so you get a lot of waste. However, the good wood has made some beautiful tuning knobs and fingerboards. Next time I think I will buy it already dried and cut to a managable size, it is a lot easier! Those Gidgee pieces you have look like a good score, but expect ruin to your bandsaw blades when the time comes to saw it.
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Re: Gidgee storage & usage questions

Post by DarwinStrings » Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:21 pm

Thinking again after reading Peters post is that seasoning in the round gives more chance of opening up the heart shakes this may or may not be a problem depending on if they run straight up the log or spiral around it, sometimes they wont go far in from the ends though and other times they will, good luck and when you head for Darwin bring some up for a swap. I have some nice fresh ironwood fret boards and bridges seasoning up right now.

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Re: Gidgee storage & usage questions

Post by Clancy » Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:37 pm

Thanks all - some sage advice given.

For the moment I've painted the ends (plumbers glue) & stored them off the ground in the shade.
Will have to buy a new blade before trying anything, but I've only got my 9" bandsaw so I could only do some of the smaller pieces anyway.

Jim, I don't understand this statement. Could you elaborate?
seasoning in the round gives more chance of opening up the heart shakes
And definately up for a swap if all goes well with my stuff!

Ceers
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Re: Gidgee storage & usage questions

Post by DarwinStrings » Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:02 pm

Heart shakes are those cracks you see on the end of a log that run radially from the pith out. If you season wood in the round what often happens (although not always the case especially with really dense dry country wood like you have there) is because the tangential shrinkage is greater than the radial shrinkage the wood has nowhere else to go other than to split (usually radially i.e. heart shakes). If you mill the wood green you minimise this, in fact because the wood after being cut is not subject to being, like "held" by the rest of the log, you can stop the heart shakes (hmmm sounds right in my head) I just pinched this diagram from a web site to illustrate what I mean hope they don't mind.

If you look at the dowel shaped section it shows how it will shrink in relation to where it sat originally in the round. It shows how the wood shrinks more tangentially than radially. The diagram also shows heart shakes.
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Re: Gidgee storage & usage questions

Post by rod » Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:10 pm

Another thing to consider is that if it is grown in a suburban environment,(which I summize it is if a tree lopper has it) it will have grown a lot quicker than it would in its natural environment. If this is the case the growth rings will not be as tight, making it a lot less stable and prone to cracking......

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Re: Gidgee storage & usage questions

Post by DarwinStrings » Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:34 pm

Rod just brought another thought to mind. I heard they might be opening up new housing lands in Alice, not sure if they have started yet Craig but keep your ears open and you maybe be able to get in before the bulldozers, I reckon with a bit of luck there might be some nice dry country stuff that they will just burn when they develop.

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Re: Gidgee storage & usage questions

Post by peter.coombe » Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:25 am

The Ironwood log I seasoned in the log did have heart shakes on the ends, but they did not go far into the log. Most of the log was useable, apart from the knots of course. The first log I cut up while still wet made zero fingerboards because they all split, wheras I got some nice fingerboards out of the second log. I think the problem with these extremely dense timbers is that they are subject to case hardening. Case hardening is where the timber on the outside dries much quicker than the internal timber, and this causes stresses leading to splitting. Case hardening is usually more of a problem with dense timber because the moisture movement out of the timber is very slow. So, the solution is to slow things down as much as possible. Drying then occurs more evenly and the stresses are less. Patience is required, don't expect to be able to use the wood for some years. I had that Ironwood log in log form for nearly 10 years. How long it actually took to dry I don't know.

One thing that may be worth a try is to slice the log radially into 4 (or more) pieces. That should reduce heart shakes because you are relieving the stresses, and also will speed up the drying process. I would try that on one log first and see what happens.
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Re: Gidgee storage & usage questions

Post by DarwinStrings » Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:33 pm

Now you have me wondering what was going on with that log Peter, was it Erythrophleum chlorostachys? I just cut up a green one into back and side sets as well as fret boards and had no trouble with it. Was yours a straight trunk or maybe a branch?




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Re: Gidgee storage & usage questions

Post by Puff » Sun Jan 16, 2011 1:06 pm

Possibly not useful but...
For slicing veneer I was told to utterly soak the wood/log in water first - for up to a month.
After slicing gently dry and slowly induce it to flat.
I add to that with soak the stuff in hide glue and keep it flat between two sheets of glass.

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Re: Gidgee storage & usage questions

Post by peter.coombe » Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:09 pm

No idea if it was a trunk or a branch. I picked out the straightest and most knot free I could find from a batch of smallish logs loaded on a pallet. I believe it was Acacia excelsa, i.e. NSW Ironwood, definately not Cooktown Ironwood. Makes really nice fingerboards.
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Re: Gidgee storage & usage questions

Post by Clancy » Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:17 pm

Well, while lying in bed last night I made the decision to cut 1 log in half & see what I've got.

Took a bit of work. Had to slice off some sapwood first so that I could fit it into the bandsaw, then went slow.
It didn't blunt the blade (anymore than normal) but the wet dust did clog everywhere & took a fair bit of cleaning up after. (And airing out the smell)

Anyways, here's how it turned out after cleaning up with a (gidgee) plane.
This piece is just longer than the length of a fingerboard blank.
Unfortunately there's too many defects to get any fingerboards out of this log.
(Should get some bridge blanks though, & maybe a couple of little plane bodies)
Also enables me to test Peter's idea - will see how this split log dries compared to the others.

Thanks everyone for they're help.
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Re: Gidgee storage & usage questions

Post by DarwinStrings » Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:49 pm

Ahhhh, problem solved Peter, I always think of ironwood as the Cooktown one. looks good Craig and with a bit of luck the rest will be more fruitful.

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Re: Gidgee storage & usage questions

Post by Clancy » Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:39 pm

NSW Ironwood (Acacia excelsa) looks nice.

The local "Ironwood" is also an acacia, Southern Ironwood (Acacia estrophiolata)
"My mate the tree lopper" showed me some furniture he's made from Southern Ironwood so it's possible to get large pieces of it, possibly even for back & sides.
Unfortunately there's no way I could cut that up let alone ship it back to canberra at the end of the year.

BTW, I just found out that Cooktown ironwood is not an acaia (Erythrophleum chlorostachys).
I'd always assumed it was.
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Re: Gidgee storage & usage questions

Post by DarwinStrings » Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:56 pm

If you do find anything you like Craig you could always chuck it in the boot and head for Darwin and I would be happy to put it through the saw. Alternatively I just sent 440 Kgs of wood to Perth on Northline freight and it only cost $257, I think Northline have a Alice depot.

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Re: Gidgee storage & usage questions

Post by peter.coombe » Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:22 am

Cutting in half won't be enough. you are not relieving the stresses enough and it will most likely split. You will need to cut the halves in half again so you have 4 pieces, and do it now.

That log you have looks fairly typical to me. Looks ok from the outside, but as soon as you cut it in half you discover all sorts of hidden defects. Can be really frustrating if you want fingerboards, but I can use most of the smaller pieces as tuning knobs so most of the good wood gets used even if only small pieces. That mandolin in the picture has Lancewood tuning knobs from the 25yo log I recently cut up and a NSW Ironwood fingerboard.
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Re: Gidgee storage & usage questions

Post by charangohabsburg » Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:30 am

Hi Craig, nice score! :cl
peter.coombe wrote:Cutting in half won't be enough. you are not relieving the stresses enough and it will most likely split. You will need to cut the halves in half again so you have 4 pieces, and do it now.
Very good advice. Cutting the truncs in quarters you'll be on the save side, cutting the wood to "end-thickness" when not yet dried will reduce drying cracks to a minimum. Yes, it's a mess cutting wet wood but you get rid of cracks-related sorrows. ;)

Two years ago I cut my 9 cherry trees in halves, and they show no substantial cracking. But it's cherry, not gidgee. Hint: in any case, leave the pieces about 20 cm longer than their final length (especially if you leave them in quarters), so you can cut off the starting cracks (the cracks start at the ends).

Also, if during the resawing process you think that it's a lot of wood for your small bandsaw, cut those trunks or branches (?) with their "center off-center" (the first two pieces from the right in your first picture) as the last ones. This is tension wood which might (will) cause problems (distorts) when using. It's best use is firewood, I think (idependently of which kind of wood it is). If you still want to use it, slice it up into thin pieces and laminate it, this will take out the tensions. Or let it season for a couple of decades... Not really worth the time and sweat, in my opinion.

Anyway, it's great fun and satisfaction to "do" one's own wood. :)

If you like to read, get the book Understanding Wood from R. Bruce Hoadley, it helped me a lot when I jumped in my "ten tree adventure".

P.S.
You might consider gluing up some "more than two pieces backs". Antonio de Torres even made three- and four pieces - tops! (And a lot of such backs too, of course) ;)
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Re: Gidgee storage & usage questions

Post by Kim » Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:48 pm

I second the advice on Bruce R. Hoadley's "Understanding Wood" its old, but 'facts' are timeless 8)

On a side note. As mentioned above a lot of these small diameter desert woods have little moisture to lose. Even when cut green they feel 'cool' rather than wet like most other woods.

I knew and old bloke who, until he passed away, use to supplement his pension by making wall clocks and plaques. He had a mate who he used to go prospecting with years earlier who still lived out in the goldfields of WA. Each trip to Perth, his mate would drop in a few small logs of mulga and gimlet and they would simply stack them on a pallet inside half an old corrugated iron water tank.

The old bloke had a horizontal bandsaw, the kind used for metal work. He also had a cradle welded up from angle iron to hold the logs that were all app 150 to 200mm through. When he needed to make a batch of clocks, he would load a log into the cradle and start slicing off rounds from the end, bark, sapwood, the lot, at around 19mm. I don't know how much wastage he got through end checks, but I do know that none of the logs were sealed on the ends during storage as I seen some with the ends right off the chainsaw that were inside his shed ready for slicing.

He gave me a small log of mulga from that lot which I took home and sealed with plumbers glue. A year or so later I resawed it for fretboards etc and there was next to no checking. Once opened up though, the wood was found to have lots of knots and branch junctions etc so very little 'clean' wood came from the exercise. But its beautiful wood all the same so I continued the resaw. I am glad I did because even with all the faults, the 8 to 12mm thick slices I kept have remained surprisingly stable even after 5 years.

I know that many will say that you should not use such wood for the fretboard of a guitar for fear it will impart a bend or twist in the neck, but I disagree. First of all because as mentioned above, regardless of the knots and other issues, the wood is in fact quite stable. This is great the thing about really dense wood, it takes a long time to lose what little moisture it has to give up, but it also reacts very slowly to changes in RH because it can't take up moisture from the atmosphere that quickly either.

This means that such wood by its nature has greatly reduced extremes of movement, ie; it could take days of even weeks for malga to reach equilibrium if it were taken from a relatively dry climate, to a moist tropical climate. So under normal circumstances, where the wood is only exposed to the normal RH swings that occur within its own environment, it hardly has a chance to move at all, because no sooner does the RH rise, than it falls again. So dense woods such as mulga do not have enough time to respond to these swings and more often than not, RH changes will occur around them whilst they remain quite stable suspended somewhere in the middle.

The other thing to consider about the effects of wood in tension, is that movement and the force associated with that movement, is directly related to how 'thick' the wood is..i.e. thicker wood = more reactive fibres and therefore, more force to worry about. But a fretboard 'before' processing with a radius, is only 6mm thick, and then many slots are cut into it to a depth which leaves the section with the structural integrity of kerfed lining.....not much force left in that regardless of the knots and yes, it can be argued that the slots are then filled with fret wire reintroducing much of the lost integrity once the board is glued to the neck. But to my mind, the reactive fibres have still been cut which reduces their capacity to work as one to twist and buckle the fretboard.

Case at hand, I made this mulga fretboard and glued it onto a guitar a few years back. It has lots of 'reactive' wood, knot shadows, branch incursions (have a look at the wood between 1st and 2nd fret), sap wood, even the bindings are full of knots, but the neck of the guitar to which that FB is glued remains as solid as a rock.
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My point here is that whilst we should 'consider' good wood working principals when selecting materials, we also need to look closely at the 'actual' consequences of those principals in relation to the job at hand. Considering the relatively thin cross sections with which we work, the risk of being overly pedantic about perfection in grain uniformity is that we will miss out on using some truly spectacular woods.

Cheers

Kim

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Re: Gidgee storage & usage questions

Post by Clancy » Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:19 pm

Wow,
Kim, Markus, Peter, Puff, Jim, Rod - Thanks. This has all been truly enlightening.
The book is on the list!
And Kim, I'd never thought of "bookmatching" pieces to make them wide enough for the fretboard.
Nice work.

I built my first instrument with tonewood supplied from a luthier suppliers.
Except the King Billy top, which I stumbled upon as a dressed block at the "Working with wood" show when it came to canberra.

Splitting this gave me the confidence to search timber yards for more raw planks & re-saw (with Dominic's help) my own tonewood, thus saving enough money to continue building instruments without damaging the mortgage or the kid's schooling fund.

Moving onto fresh cut timber is the next step for me, and as has been demonstrated here, involves another load of learning & decision making.

And whether I manage to obtain much usable timber from this load of gidgee is actually secondary to everything.
For the cost of a case of beer, and a bit of effort, I get hand on lessons in something new.

Once mastered, of course, the next step is to learn about planting & cultivation.
Only way I'll attain that "hands on" knowledge is if they plant a seed above my resting place.
But please don't let it be gidgee - when wet it smells bad!
Really bad :lol:
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Re: Gidgee storage & usage questions

Post by DarwinStrings » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:49 pm

I have never met a Gidgee tree Craig but don't discounts it as a nice tree on your grave, maybe the flowers smell nice or the foliage after rain.

Another note on drying in the round. If you take the rule of thumb (obviously it varies) of one year per inch of board thickness to atmosphere dry then with a round of 6 inch diameter log could take around 6 years to reach EMC, knock it down to a fret board and you could be looking at 6 months.

Pretty fret board Kim, that sap inclusion give a nice contrast the the average.

Jim
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