First build - a lute (wish me luck!!)

[Cameronwpotter]

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Originally Posted on: Tues Sep 07, 2010

Hi all,

I have been poking around here for a bit and was going to start this thread once I had photos - but I am being slack with my camera and I have a question or two so I need to just get this post made and fill in the photos later... (oh, also, I have been told that making a lute is rather like jumping in the deep end of luthiery - but that is me I am afraid...)

1. Neck material. I have read that people use a light softwood. I have also heard that it should be strong - and so some people suggest a hardwood. Hmmm. This seems like a conflict - I have noticed a lot of those so far. Laughing Anyway, I am thinking one of a few ways: some nicely figured tas oak, so straight-grained tas oak, some sassafras or western red cedar with a contrasting central strip of maybe jarrah or myrtle (my WRC is not wide enough and is VERY light)?

2. Spacers between the ribs. I don't want to use the black and white purfling, but instead use something a little simpler. I have read that this actually makes the job a little easier. My bowl will probably be myrtle. I am thinking of tas oak spacers.

3. Fingerboard. Why are they all dark? Is there any reason that figured tas oak wouldn't work?

4. The rose. I want to make sure that this doesn't fall apart (as much as I can). However, I also want to find out what importance the rose has. Does more material or less material there affect the tone and projection of the instrument?

5. The soundboard. I am making a soundboard from WRC. It is beautifully grained and very, very light. How thick should I be aiming for?

6. Peg box. I assume that tas oak would be fine for this? Basically just a hardwood?

That will do me for now...

Cheers

Cam

[Lillian]

Hey Martin, someone new here wants to chat with you.

[Cameronwpotter]

Actually I know Martin from Woodworkforums and shot him a few questions... He suggested that I post on here (which prompted me to overcome my reticence due to not having photos yet)!

Cheers

Cam

[Nick]

Welcome to the forum Cameron. Certainly don't believe in starting on the easy rung do you? Can't offer any answers I'm sorry as I have yet to tackle one of these beasts but I wish you luck for the endeavour! If you have some good wood skills and a methodical approach to things & a ton patience, it should come out well.

[kiwigeo]

Good to see you finally logged in Cam,

Comments from me below. Dave White or Colin will hopefully see your post and chime in....Colin in particular is a lute guru and knows far more than me about the construction and history of the instrument.

Cheers Martin

1. Neck material. I have read that people use a light softwood. I have also heard that it should be strong - and so some people suggest a hardwood. Hmmm. This seems like a conflict - I have noticed a lot of those so far. Laughing Anyway, I am thinking one of a few ways: some nicely figured tas oak, so straight-grained tas oak, some sassafras or western red cedar with a contrasting central strip of maybe jarrah or myrtle (my WRC is not wide enough and is VERY light)?

Alot of lutes have veneered necks so choice of neck core material is flexible. I use limewood and veneer same with Indian Rosewood. Note that there will be a dirty big screw anchoring through the neckblock into the neck wood so the wood needs to be able to hold a screw.

2. Spacers between the ribs. I don't want to use the black and white purfling, but instead use something a little simpler. I have read that this actually makes the job a little easier. My bowl will probably be myrtle. I am thinking of tas oak spacers.

w/b/w purfling compresses so is actually easier to use as spacers than solid spacers.

3. Fingerboard. Why are they all dark? Is there any reason that figured tas oak wouldn't work?

The only reason I can think of for using dark coloured fingerboard wood is because it doesnt show up discolouration from exposure to sweat and other nasties that lurk on fingers. I love black so thats why I love ebony. Tas oak..not sure how it would go on a lute. Fingerboard wood has to be dimensionally stable and resistant to wear. Also keep in mind the fingerboard on a lute is much thinner than that on a guitar. Lutes normally have tied on gut frets and to avoid the frets cutting into the edges of the fretboard the wood has to be fairly hard.

4. The rose. I want to make sure that this doesn't fall apart (as much as I can). However, I also want to find out what importance the rose has. Does more material or less material there affect the tone and projection of the instrument?

When cutting out the rosette glue paper to the back side of the lute to reinforce the top while youre working on it. Also resist the urge to push out the nibs you cut untill theyve all been cut. While the nibs are in place they provide support for the top area youre working on. Lute rosettes come in all shapes and sizes....IMHO the pattern wont affect sound as much as other factors (bracing more important)

5. The soundboard. I am making a soundboard from WRC. It is beautifully grained and very, very light. How thick should I be aiming for?

I'm not a great fan of WRC. For a lute Swiss spruce is my choice of top woods.

6. Peg box. I assume that tas oak would be fine for this? Basically just a hardwood?

Should be ok. Again alot of builders veneer the peghead so theres flexibility in choice of woods. One important property is resistance to splitting around the peg holes. I'll be using beech on my current build and it will be veneered with Indian Rosewood.

[simonm]

I built a lute a very long time ago. The main wood was a quite nicely flamed anegre (or some such spelling). The pegbox is made of this a strip of ebony along the top edges. The inside of the pegbox is black but simply died with black india ink. The neck is a (soft light) European poplar with anegre veneer. (just a very thinned down board not a bought veneer). Thin ebony fretboard.

[Cameronwpotter]

Thanks for that.

Believe it or not things are actually progressing reasonably well!

I made a dodgy home-made bending jig (read as bit of pipe from the tip shop and a small propane burner.

I now have three ribs bent up - although not yet attached to the form.

I have also picked a bit of wood for the neck, I had a bit of king billy with horrible knots all over it, but there was a piece that was good that was just big enough for a lute neck.

I have also made the scarf joint for the neck and the neck block.

I can almost see how this will end up!

Cheers

Cam

[Kim]

Onya Cam, don't forget to take some picies...We just love!! picies.

Cheers

Kim

[Cameronwpotter]

The photos are now on the camera - but no idea where the camera cable is... It has been helpfully "put away".

I will sort it out shortly.

Cheers

Cam

[kiwigeo]

I now have three ribs bent up - although not yet attached to the form.

I have also made the scarf joint for the neck and the neck block.

Hi Cam,

I wouldnt bend up too many ribs at a time. I started with the central rib and got that glued in and then worked out either side of same bending and fitting two ribs at a time.

On my lute the neck scarf joint got done after Id finished the ribs. Doing it this way you saw through the ribs and endblock as one and there's not too much trimming of the rib ends afterwards. If you trim individual ribs to a scarf cut already on the headblock theres a danger of the chisel slipping and cutting into the head block. Is the method youre using one thats described in the book youre using? I think Dave White cut his scarf joint before gluing up the ribs.

I cut the scarf on the head block first (I used my bandsaw with its tilting table) and then laid out the body on the plan along with the neck blank and used a couple of rulers to transfer the angle of the head block cut to the end of the neck blank...taking care to ensure a bit of positive rake was put into the neck by slipping a steel ruler under the head block.

Cheers Martin

[Cameronwpotter]

Piccies!

I got the idea for doing the scarf joint early from J Downing.

However, I haven't left enough thickness on the neck to account for rib thickness... Sigh. More wood to get.

More mistakes to make...



Anyway, here are the promised piccies...

That is once I figure out how to post them here...

Maybe I need to cross post on WWF first?

Cheers

Cam

Links to piccies added:

The frame of my own design...
img~

A few loose ribs on it...
img~

Next wood to go on the iron...
img~










Finally, why the pics are on my work bench looking at nicely laid out!
img~

[kiwigeo]

Hi Cam,

Its beneficial to try and get all the ribs worked to the same thickness at the headblock end of the body. The beauty of veneering of the neck is you can make the veneer a bit thicker than final thickness and then once the neck is attached you can file the neck veneer down until it matches the ribs. Filing or scraping the body ribs down a bit is also possible but make sure you dont file/scrape right through the rib. With the neck veneer you can start again with the veneer if things start going pear shaped.

[Allen]

Welcome to the forum Cameron, and I'd love to see some piccies of your lute project.

Here's a turorial I did some time back about posting pictures to the forum.

viewtopic.php?t=669

I've also enabled you to upload pictures, so hopefully you are good to go.

[Cameronwpotter]

Hmmm... I had not planned on veneering the neck. It looked like a LOT of hard work to me. However, maybe I will do it anyway? It depends on what looks easier in the end.

I can see that this might spiral out of control!


Cheers

Cam

[Nick]

I can see that this might spiral out of control!

Welcome to the world of Luthiery! a controlled spiral is a pre requisite to this game but usually ends up involving some form of ungoverned descent.

[Cameronwpotter]

Yep. Off for a week - so things can calm down and settle in my head while I am away...

Cheers

Cam

[kiwigeo]

Hi Cam,

Im sure youve already addressed same but before you start gluing up those ribs make sure you give your mould a coat of paste wax. This prevents the ribs sticking to the mould and make releasing the finished body from the mouls alot easier.

Your mould is a bit diferent from mine and it should work. The only comment Id make is that with the mould ribs running longtiudinally it wont be easy to get up inside the mould should you need to apply a bit of pressure from inside to release the body when its finished. Looking at the width of your ribs theres a good chance youre also going to find that the individual ribs may "belly" long their length. This can be a desirable effect and lots of lutes and other similar instruments used this effect to advantage.

Im not sure exactly procedure youre going to follow for bending and fitting ribs but Id reccomend making up a sanding board for fine tuning the edges of the ribs. I assume the jointer plane in the last pic will be used for rough shaping the ribs. When you rough cut out the ribs on your bandsaw make sure you leave a bit more spare wood on the edge that will be closest to the top of the instrument...this allows for adjustment of fit. I generally cut at least 6-10mm outside the rib pattern ad I leave a bit more on both sides of the rib at the neck end of the rib.

For holding the ribs on the mould while gluing up I used map pins as well as LMI binding tape. I also placed pinned little tabs of rosewood wrapped in cellotape hard against the free edge of each rib...this helps pull the rib hard against the adjacent rib when you apply the binding tape. Most importantly have all the tape cut into sections and ready to go before you start gluing up. I think youre using PVA glue arent you? Youre going to have a longer tack time than with hide glue and once the glue is set there isnt much allowance for undoing and redoing the joint so more reason to plan the operation carefully.

Cheers Martin

[Cameronwpotter]

Thanks Martin - that is really useful!

I have already paste waxed it and actually there are a few holes in the base for internal access - but I had planned to actually wrap it in cling wrap too to be doubly safe.

I made rib patterns by covering the frame in masking tape and cutting along the ribs, so it should fit well. Then I looked at the ribs patterns and selected the ones that were thickest to use as my templates - so I know that it is already oversize.

I plan fitting the ribs exactly as you suggest - plane and sandpaper board.

I had also planned on using tape and pins to hold it all together during gluing.

Lastly, my glue for the body will be polyurethane for strength and ease. I will use hide glue to glue on the soundboard when I get to that, but until then it will be glues that will be use once... (and PVA has never treated me all that well).

Thanks again!

Cam

[rocket]

Hey Cam,, your work bench looks a bit like mine, only mine's not as tidy Cheers Rod.

[Kim]

Work benches?? Oh yes I remember those things. I had a heap of them once but I buried em all under 'stuff' to protect them from the elements...bloody elements...should be made to stay in kettles where they belong..

Cheers

Kim

[DarwinStrings]

Elements?? So that is where my elements got to, no wonder I couldn't get a cup of tea.

Jim

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