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"Originally Posted on:Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:02 am"
Hi guys,
I am a novice guitar builder from Mornington Victoria and I was thinking about setting up a luthiers Co-Op were guitar builders can work together in a centralized place. This if enough people were interested would make it easier to access equipment and also experience of other makers. I know when I started (I have only made 1 guitar to date) I had to out lay for specific tools. But now I have them it would be easier for someone else to use mine instead of buying their own.
Please if anyone thinks this is a good idea and would like to be a part of it let me know.
Thanks
Maney Beasley
PS. This would be a non profit organisation and I am not out to scam people.
Luthiers CO-OP Idea?
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Nick
- Blackwood
- Posts: 3642
- Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:20 am
- Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
- Contact:
Re: Luthiers CO-OP Idea?
Welcome to the forum Maney & feel free to post pics of your first born in the gallery section.
Not a bad idea sharing a workshop area, just wonder how the idea of tool sharing would float. I'm a tradesman Engineer during the day (Closet pervert by night Laughing ) & guitar builder in my spare time and in both cases I don't like others using my own personal tools these days, a few valuable pieces of equipment have been 'lent' out to well intentioned workmates in the past only to have them returned buggered and a feeble "Yeah sorry 'bout that" given as the only compensation.
But maybe pooling of finances for those "bigger" pieces of equipment such as sanders, thicknessers e.t.c, could work (with people having their own smaller tools), if people put some money towards the purchase they are more inclined to look after their investment. Good luck with your idea.
Not a bad idea sharing a workshop area, just wonder how the idea of tool sharing would float. I'm a tradesman Engineer during the day (Closet pervert by night Laughing ) & guitar builder in my spare time and in both cases I don't like others using my own personal tools these days, a few valuable pieces of equipment have been 'lent' out to well intentioned workmates in the past only to have them returned buggered and a feeble "Yeah sorry 'bout that" given as the only compensation.
But maybe pooling of finances for those "bigger" pieces of equipment such as sanders, thicknessers e.t.c, could work (with people having their own smaller tools), if people put some money towards the purchase they are more inclined to look after their investment. Good luck with your idea.
"Jesus Loves You."
Nice to hear in church but not in a Mexican prison.
Nice to hear in church but not in a Mexican prison.
Re: Luthiers CO-OP Idea?
Welcome to the forum Maney,
Nick makes some good points, with the amount of time i have invested into lapping my own edge tools etc, so they are how i like them to be, there is simply no way i could share them around.
I think the best approach is through a woodworking club such as Allen McFarlen is attached to up in Cairns. This allows a co-op arrangement for use of static machines etc and in this environment there is every chance to set up a sub-group focusing on lutherie. This sub-group could build a shared gobar deck and radius dishes, fretboard radius jig, slotting jig etc, etc, and this would work well i would imagine BUT, you would still need to BYO tool roll of chisels, scrapers and small planes etc.
Good luck
Cheers
Kim
Nick makes some good points, with the amount of time i have invested into lapping my own edge tools etc, so they are how i like them to be, there is simply no way i could share them around.
I think the best approach is through a woodworking club such as Allen McFarlen is attached to up in Cairns. This allows a co-op arrangement for use of static machines etc and in this environment there is every chance to set up a sub-group focusing on lutherie. This sub-group could build a shared gobar deck and radius dishes, fretboard radius jig, slotting jig etc, etc, and this would work well i would imagine BUT, you would still need to BYO tool roll of chisels, scrapers and small planes etc.
Good luck
Cheers
Kim
Re: Luthiers CO-OP Idea?
Reply by "maurie"
Hi Maney, welcome
Whilst I agree with Nick and Kim in relation to personal tools, the idea of working get togethers has great benifits. There is a small group of us here in Albany W.A ( 4 to 6) that get together on a weekly basis at Pete Young's small but cosey workshop or at the local TAFE. We swap ideas , discuss new concepts, help each other, bulk buy as a group getting better prices and shared freight and at the end of the day have a few beers and generally b/shit. It is an ideal learning situation and it surprises me that some of the major towns and cities don't have similar luthier groups, or do they?
An example of learning from others was 2009 when Bob, Kim, Allen and Michael came over to Playmakers in Albany. Over a few beers at John Maddison's house after Playmakers, I learnt more about the finer points in 10 minutes discussing one of Bob's guitars with him, than I have got out of books. Books are great but they can't give you the finer details required. At the time I had built about 16 guitars but after thorough examination of Bob's guitar and discussing it with him, it was obvious I was still over building. I feel my guitars have improved as a result of this get together.
Your idea of a luthiers co-op would have many group benifits buts I see it being difficult to organise and more difficult to control in relation to machine use and abuse etc, but pursue the group get togethers.
Cheers Maurie
Hi Maney, welcome
Whilst I agree with Nick and Kim in relation to personal tools, the idea of working get togethers has great benifits. There is a small group of us here in Albany W.A ( 4 to 6) that get together on a weekly basis at Pete Young's small but cosey workshop or at the local TAFE. We swap ideas , discuss new concepts, help each other, bulk buy as a group getting better prices and shared freight and at the end of the day have a few beers and generally b/shit. It is an ideal learning situation and it surprises me that some of the major towns and cities don't have similar luthier groups, or do they?
An example of learning from others was 2009 when Bob, Kim, Allen and Michael came over to Playmakers in Albany. Over a few beers at John Maddison's house after Playmakers, I learnt more about the finer points in 10 minutes discussing one of Bob's guitars with him, than I have got out of books. Books are great but they can't give you the finer details required. At the time I had built about 16 guitars but after thorough examination of Bob's guitar and discussing it with him, it was obvious I was still over building. I feel my guitars have improved as a result of this get together.
Your idea of a luthiers co-op would have many group benifits buts I see it being difficult to organise and more difficult to control in relation to machine use and abuse etc, but pursue the group get togethers.
Cheers Maurie
Re: Luthiers CO-OP Idea?
Reply by "allen"
The Cairns Woodworkers Guild is turning into a bit of a luthiers Co-Op recently. We've got so many people interested in building Ukuleles that it seems to be the one thing that is happening all the time.
We are collecting some tools for the club, but there are just so many very specialised ones that I'm certain will be rooted in short order if left in a club environment.
In all honesty, while I really like the interaction of working with others, and having a bit of a yarn, I much prefer my own workshop, as I know where everything is and my tools are set up and sharp.
The Cairns Woodworkers Guild is turning into a bit of a luthiers Co-Op recently. We've got so many people interested in building Ukuleles that it seems to be the one thing that is happening all the time.
We are collecting some tools for the club, but there are just so many very specialised ones that I'm certain will be rooted in short order if left in a club environment.
In all honesty, while I really like the interaction of working with others, and having a bit of a yarn, I much prefer my own workshop, as I know where everything is and my tools are set up and sharp.
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vandenboom
- Blackwood
- Posts: 414
- Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:27 pm
- Location: Melbourne (Ringwood), Australia
Re: Luthiers CO-OP Idea?
Reply by "vandenboom"
I would love to be part of such a group but its success would depend totally on the individuals who become part of it and how it evolved.
When I started all this about 5 years ago, I joined a local woodwork group for 6 months in an attempt to build some basic skills. They had shared equipment such as big band saw etc. But this created other complications such as legal liability re OH&S responsibility, the need for the group to manage training, can a person use the equipment unaccompanied etc.
It was clear in that group that its good operation also relied heavily on the skills & generosity of 2 chaps - they tended to maintain the equipment and tools and I felt that some members of the group took that for granted.
Of course it doesn't have to end up like this but it depends on lots of factors and the people involved.
I have taken a different approach, searching out people in my area who share this passion and respectfully asking if they are happy to meet and share our experience. Not everyone is - some want to protect their IP as it is their income, others have other reasons.
For me, sharing of knowledge, ideas and approaches has been more valuable than sharing of tools. However, as relationships grow and you get to know some individuals, sharing of tools can be another benefit from the relationship.
Another thought on the subject of tools is that I have become more aware in the last 12 months is that I think I could do with less in the way of tools if I had had contact with more people with good hand tool skills. I have tended to buy up equipment to try and compensate for poor hand tool skills. I met a Melbourne builder a couple of months ago in his home (Andrew Denholme) and was staggered at how small his workshop was and how little he had in the way of tools. Keeping things simple was an important principle in his approach.
Sorry - this has turned into a bit of rave. In summary, I think the co-op is possible, but I would be searching for compatible colleagues in my area and trying to build skills that reduce my need for tools, unless you are planning to go into the guitar building business, and build time becomes critical.
Frank
I would love to be part of such a group but its success would depend totally on the individuals who become part of it and how it evolved.
When I started all this about 5 years ago, I joined a local woodwork group for 6 months in an attempt to build some basic skills. They had shared equipment such as big band saw etc. But this created other complications such as legal liability re OH&S responsibility, the need for the group to manage training, can a person use the equipment unaccompanied etc.
It was clear in that group that its good operation also relied heavily on the skills & generosity of 2 chaps - they tended to maintain the equipment and tools and I felt that some members of the group took that for granted.
Of course it doesn't have to end up like this but it depends on lots of factors and the people involved.
I have taken a different approach, searching out people in my area who share this passion and respectfully asking if they are happy to meet and share our experience. Not everyone is - some want to protect their IP as it is their income, others have other reasons.
For me, sharing of knowledge, ideas and approaches has been more valuable than sharing of tools. However, as relationships grow and you get to know some individuals, sharing of tools can be another benefit from the relationship.
Another thought on the subject of tools is that I have become more aware in the last 12 months is that I think I could do with less in the way of tools if I had had contact with more people with good hand tool skills. I have tended to buy up equipment to try and compensate for poor hand tool skills. I met a Melbourne builder a couple of months ago in his home (Andrew Denholme) and was staggered at how small his workshop was and how little he had in the way of tools. Keeping things simple was an important principle in his approach.
Sorry - this has turned into a bit of rave. In summary, I think the co-op is possible, but I would be searching for compatible colleagues in my area and trying to build skills that reduce my need for tools, unless you are planning to go into the guitar building business, and build time becomes critical.
Frank
Re: Luthiers CO-OP Idea?
Reply by "localele"
My shed is always open to visitors you just need to be mindful of the time.A quick check to see the location of the shed would involve a six pack and 1 to 2 hrs while a full tour of facilities and discussion of all things tool and wood can require a full carton of beer on ice and an open ended time frame.( possibly 2 days and 1 night) Not trying to put anyone off this is just the harsh reality of obsessed people and the secrets that lie behind closed doors.
My shed is always open to visitors you just need to be mindful of the time.A quick check to see the location of the shed would involve a six pack and 1 to 2 hrs while a full tour of facilities and discussion of all things tool and wood can require a full carton of beer on ice and an open ended time frame.( possibly 2 days and 1 night) Not trying to put anyone off this is just the harsh reality of obsessed people and the secrets that lie behind closed doors.
Cheers from Micheal.
Remember the "5P Rule".
Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance.
Remember the "5P Rule".
Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance.
Re: Luthiers CO-OP Idea?
Reply by "kiwigeo"
And if I arrived towing a minitanker??
Localele wrote:
A quick check to see the location of the shed would involve a six pack and 1 to 2 hrs while a full tour of facilities and discussion of all things tool and wood can require a full carton of beer on ice and an open ended time frame.( possibly 2 days and 1 night)
And if I arrived towing a minitanker??
Martin
Re: Luthiers CO-OP Idea?
Reply by "localele"
With a mini tanker we might even open the wood shed. Have to be careful of snakes in there though. Security is always an issue.
With a mini tanker we might even open the wood shed. Have to be careful of snakes in there though. Security is always an issue.
Cheers from Micheal.
Remember the "5P Rule".
Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance.
Remember the "5P Rule".
Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance.
Re: Luthiers CO-OP Idea?
Reply by "localele"
Woodsheds are good and a close second is a tree on the ground outside ready to be cut and put in the woodshed.
Woodsheds are good and a close second is a tree on the ground outside ready to be cut and put in the woodshed.
Cheers from Micheal.
Remember the "5P Rule".
Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance.
Remember the "5P Rule".
Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance.
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maney beasley
- Gidgee
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:48 pm
Re: Luthiers CO-OP Idea?
Reply by "maney beasley"
Thanks guys for the response. It has given me a lot to think about, so in that note i will ponder the idea. I guess the tool borrowing is only secondary to teh wealth of knowledge others can give, especially to a novice like me.
Once again thanks.
Thanks guys for the response. It has given me a lot to think about, so in that note i will ponder the idea. I guess the tool borrowing is only secondary to teh wealth of knowledge others can give, especially to a novice like me.
Once again thanks.
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Pete Howlett
- Myrtle
- Posts: 89
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:08 pm
Re: Luthiers CO-OP Idea?
Reply by "pete howlett"
You guys must have heard of the shed projects started in Australia to help unemployed men gather and talk?
You guys must have heard of the shed projects started in Australia to help unemployed men gather and talk?
Re: Luthiers CO-OP Idea?
Reply by "allen"
Men's Sheds are what you're referring to Pete. Springing up all over the place, but they don't all work out as well as what the press reports from my very limited experience.
The local one has been granted more money than you could ever hope for to build a shed. The problem is that they have to have a plot of dirt to put it on of their own, so have to raise several hundred thousand dollars for suitably zoned and sized property. So it's a great cause with no legs.
Those same funds could be directed to other local community organizations that would be able to help fill the need, but in my somewhat cynical view, I don't believe that they want to do this, as it's all good and well to say that you've set this money aside for these things, but it's entirely another to actually have to spend it.
Men's Sheds are what you're referring to Pete. Springing up all over the place, but they don't all work out as well as what the press reports from my very limited experience.
The local one has been granted more money than you could ever hope for to build a shed. The problem is that they have to have a plot of dirt to put it on of their own, so have to raise several hundred thousand dollars for suitably zoned and sized property. So it's a great cause with no legs.
Those same funds could be directed to other local community organizations that would be able to help fill the need, but in my somewhat cynical view, I don't believe that they want to do this, as it's all good and well to say that you've set this money aside for these things, but it's entirely another to actually have to spend it.
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joolstacho
- Myrtle
- Posts: 67
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:33 am
Re: Luthiers CO-OP Idea?
Reply by "joolstacho"
Well we may be all too thinly distributed for woodshed groups, but it struck me today as I was sanding 3 necks that it might be possible to get together for a big group-buy of sandpaper! (How much do you use?!)
Well we may be all too thinly distributed for woodshed groups, but it struck me today as I was sanding 3 necks that it might be possible to get together for a big group-buy of sandpaper! (How much do you use?!)
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Pete Howlett
- Myrtle
- Posts: 89
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:08 pm
Re: Luthiers CO-OP Idea?
Shame - seemed like a good idea bit I guesslike all political initiatives they falter...
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