Upright electric bass

[Dave White]

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"Originally Posted on:Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:16 pm"

Daughter number one wants to make an upright electric bass with me similar to the one used by Trevor Hutchinson of Lunasa, She's researching for the design in terms of shape and the scale length will be appropriate to her stature I've seen stuff on the web about making these which looks like electric bass style construction - solid body with drop-tops and maybe some hollow chambers, but have a hankering to do something more "acoustic" even though the sound will be largely reliant on amplification.

Does anyone know about the design of such things (hint Matthew ) or can point us in the right direction?

[Nick]

You're in luck Dave, we not only have Matthew the Bass Meister but we are extremely fortunate to have P Bill who makes the electric uprights professionally (& very good they are to by the looks http://www.billpaulineubs.com/) so hopefully he'll chip in to your post.

[P Bill]

Thanks Nick.

Hi Dave,

In an ideal world we'd have a double bass and an EUB. Portability is the main reason behind the EUBs. You can show up at the airport with your EUB in a box 200 mm X 200 mm X 1.6 m, a very big advantage.

I've made an attempt and am still working on a portable acoustic double bass. It's on my web site, it's the Double Junior model. I've made two. The second is a vast improvement on the first. It's as long as a double bass, but less than half the width. Ok for moving around town, and for air travel the neck is removable. The sound is definitely acoustic. It has two bass bars, no sound post, and the piezo tabs are under each foot.

I just sold an EUB to a very active player with a big band. He tried them all and liked the EUB. He said a typical gig would be half swing and the rest disco/pop. He normally brings a guitar bass for the disco part of the show, but now reckons he can do the whole show with the EUB.

A lot of the tone is going to depend on how it is played.

[kiwigeo]

P Bill wrote:

You can show up at the airport with your EUB in a box 200 mm X 200 mm X 1.6 m, a very big advantage.

The way Qantas are policing cabin luggage at the moment Id say you could probably get away with taking an instrument that size on the plane and stuffing it into an overhead locker.

[P Bill]

Hi Dave,

I forgot the most obvious one, the grandaddy of them all, the Ampeg Baby Bass. Several baby basses have been made by different manufacturers, most notably Steve Azola working with the original designer. I've never played one, but by all reports they are very satisfying. They're larger than EUBs, but are constructed and function like a double bass.

[matthew]

Dave I'd be asking some more questions about the expectations of the end user.

Why electric upright? Is it for the sound or the look or the portability?

Is she a doubke bassist already?

Scale length can be anything you want it to be as long as you can find strings for it.

All the options depend on what the user wants to achieve.

If I wanted an EUB I wouldn't make one, I'd just buy one of Bill's! Seriously good instrumentj Best bass bang for your buck. Now there's a slogan for you Bill!!

Disclosure: I demo Bills basses in sydney.

Cheers MT

[P Bill]

Thanks Matthew,

I'll run that slogan by the marketing manager.

[Dave White]

Bill,

Thanks for the links - I'll look at your website later and no doubt be back with lots of questions

Matthew,

Becky is not a bassist but has always wanted one and wants to make one with me (otherwise I'd consider buying one of Bills). Playability and portability are definitely factors plus she likes the look of the EUB and wants to design her own in terms of looks/shape. There's no great expectations on sound other than it sounds like a bass and can also be played with a bow. Size-wise it needs to suit her less than 5'2" stature and stringwise probably needs to be more like electric bass guitar gauges rather than huge double bass ones. The "acoustic" aspect is more to keep me happy I don't want to do carved top and so am looking I suppose to see what could be done in terms of an "acoustic bass guitar" adaptation with an arched braced soundboard (with soundpost? and also tailpiece/floating bridge) but with pickups as it will be played plugged in. I have some Weissenborn Lutz tops from Shane plus various hardwood billets of suitable dimensions for the rest of the box, neck etc - fingerboard might be more interesting but I like challenges.

If I'm barking up the wrong tree don't be afraid to say so as I'll then go to plan B and do the equivalent of an upright solid body electric bass - these doesn't seem half as much fun though.

[matthew]

With proper tuition even someone 5'2" with small hands can play a 3/4 bass with 41.5" scale. Happens all the time. A 1/2 size double bass as used in primary schools is 39-40" scale.

DB Technique is very different to bass guitar to be able to get the stretch between notes.

A solid upright rarely sounds like an acoustic bass because of the decay dynamics (sustain), and this also makes playing with a bow a challenge because the strings ring on. Also playing with a bow requires quite a steeply cambered (2.5-3" radius) fingerboard. Pizz playing doesn't require this as much.

If Becky likes playing the bass and wants to migrate to acoustic upright eventually (which she might) IMO she'd be better off getting used to a longer scale than bass guitar (34').

Bass strings put a lot of pressure on the top. Wait til you her what Bill has to say but personally i doubt whether you'll get much acoustic sound out of a small arched braced top because the arching will tend to be rigid (as in an eggshell) - as opposed to a carved violin/bass top which is rigid in the centre (for strength) but with a recurve at the edges to allow a pumping movement like the edges of a speaker cone.

A fingerboard without frets will eventually wear even if made of ebony (OK a cooktown ironwood one will probs last for evah!!!) and needs to be able to be re-dressed, planed and sanded, back to smooth. The fingerboard has a slight long scoop from end to end, it is not flat flat flat.

just a few things to think about fr the moment ....

[Dave White]

Matthew,

Thanks for those thoughts - very useful.

Still giving this dead dog a few last kicks so - what sort of string tension would a 40" scale length bass have - this I suspect gives a lot more torque as the bridge is much higher than a guitar.

[matthew]

Well you only really need a high bridge if you're going to bow, to give the bow clearance on a full sized double bass.
A lower bridge will give you lower tension. Lower tension will move the soundboard less=less acoustic volume= floppier strings=easier on the fingers=more string buzz.

But I like higher tension because you get a better tone.

on a DB, string tension is usually around 50-70 lbs. this translates to about 40-50lbs downwards force onto the soundboard.

another thing, you need to design the instrument in such a way that it doesn't spin in your hands when playing. A DB normally rests against your body and legs. But some EUB models are awful to play because they are too light and spin a lot, also playing with a bow is harder in this situation as well. Bill's EUB basses work well because the body rest is very solid and weighted so it sits right.

... not trying to kill yer dog BTW, just feeding it with information.

[Dave White]

matthew wrote:

on a DB, string tension is usually around 50-70 lbs. this translates to about 40-50lbs downwards force onto the soundboard.

Matthew - thanks for more useful info.

I assume that that is per string rather than the total for all four strings? That gives 200-280lb and 160-200lb downwards force on the soundboard? That's not outlandish in terms of some of the more "interesting" acoustics I've made (harp guitar/double necked acoustic lapside) albeit more concentrated in a small area of the top. I'm thinking of extra spruce laminations in the centre plus bridge-plate and an adaptation of cf flying buttress braces - maybe including a neckblock to tail-block cf tube/tubes system.

As I say I'm not looking for this to perform purely acoustically, just to maybe add some more acoustic tone to the plugged in sound . . . well actually as I said because I like building acoustic things

[matthew]

This is the final re-constructed message of this topic posted by the ANZLF help team.

downwards force on a conventional DB bridge is around 15-20% of the longitudinal tension. so that's 60lbs each string, with a total downwards force of say 50lbs (all four strings). this will change if the string angles over the bridge are different, and different brands and sizes have different tensions in the first place.

But I don't know how you're going to use that info.

The acoustic volume you get is related to the size of the vibrating top and body cavity ... even on a double bass this is barely enough!

In my opinion the acoustic timbre of the Double Bass is due more than anything to the damping characteristics of a large sprung top, which is very hard to reproduce in a solid or chambered instrument. And you likely won't reproduce it with magnetic pickups, only piezo elements or microphones, and then only if the timbre is right in the first place.

A lot of the sound result depends on the technique of the player, too; the left hand technique is very important in getting good sound.

I think your best bet for sound would be a small bodied bass with as large a top area as possible. Build it as light as you possibly can without it collapsing, but maximise the downwards force on the top to get it moving and damping the sustain. Laminate sides and back for strength. Stiff neck and conventional fingerboard, 40" scale. For arco playing, the soundpost+ bassbar design has kind of proven itself over hundreds of years and contributes to the acoustic bass sound. passive piezo pickups in bridge, a good preamp.

simple isn't it?