17-21" Bandsaw options in New Zealand

[tim mullin]

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"Originally Posted on: Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:33 am"

I've pretty much come to the end of my patience with a 14" bandsaw that really can't do anything in the way of resaw work. It's a great little saw, but I currently have it up on Trademe and looking for a larger, more capable replacement. With an emphasis on resaw ability, I think I'm looking for something with grunt, and heavy cast wheels.

Any of my Kiwi colleagues done their homework on this? From what I can tell, many suppliers are listing an 18"/470mm industrial model with 3HP motor, 280mm max depth weighing about 160kg. I strongly suspect all are the same Asian-made saw with different names. The pics I've seen show spoked, light-looking wheels.

Carbatec has very similar-looking saws, with similar overall weight, but claim that their industrial saws all have solid cast iron wheels.

Holytek (from Jacks) seem to have a 21" HD saw with cast wheels, 3HP, weighing 280kg -- probably also much more pricey than the above alternatives.

Can anyone give some additional insight on what is available in New Zealand and what should be avoided?

[kiwigeo]

Cant help you much Tim but you might find someone who can help you here:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f27/

Cheers Martin

[Robert Anderson]

Tim, I have the Carbatec 2i" bandsaw and do a lot of resawing with it and I love it. It will handle anything you can throw at it. Like any bandsaw you need to spend a little time seting up but once it is right it's a dream. I also have a power feed on mine so I only have to offer up the wood and let it do the rest

[seeaxe]

Hi Tim

I just had a look at upgrading my 14 inch Masport Dyco, circa 1980 bandsaw, basically cos I felt like buying a new shiny one. I found the same ones you did from lots of different suppliers, and all much of a muchness, all with alloy wheels.

I am not sure what's so bad about alloy, spoked wheels, it seems like they are used on most saws, but hten i dont do much in the way of resawing. My Dyo has allow spoked wheels and I have noticed any problems with them.

The Carbatec stuff looks a bit beter quality, but they do the same as everyone else, just rebadge chinese made tools. Except that they then add a big chunk onto the price. Generally, I am not convinced the additional quality is worth the additional cost. (example, my "hobby" level thcknesser cost me 350 in bunnings, exactly the same machine to the last screw was nearly 900 in Carbatec, just different colour and carbatec badge.

If you cannot find the brand you want, then suggest you get something a bit bigger than you need and it will not be working as hard. However, 21 inches is pretty big.

Good luck anyway.

I ended up cleaning up my old saw!. Now I can spend the $2000 I just saved on something esle!.

PS there was a 17inch MACMA one on trademe, just went for 1100.

Cheers

[J.F. Custom]

Hi Tim.

Can't offer much guidance as to what else is available in NZ; the only comment I can make is that the Carba-Tec 17, 19 and 21" models are manufactured in Taiwan and do indeed have heavy cast iron wheels, not alloy. I like the sound of that heavier unit though...

Richard (seeaxe), just to pick up on a few things you have said.

First, there is nothing 'bad' about alloy spoked wheels. Generally they have been used because they are cheaper to manufacture. But also because they ARE lighter; they were used on smaller model machines that may not cope with the additional weight of cast iron. Cast iron wheels are a good upgrade on larger machines because the 'fly wheel' inertia does half the cutting for you, reducing the load on your motor. The whole unit needs to be more robust in the first place with respect to these wheels too, which is a good thing.

To an extent, your assertion that Carba-Tec just 're-badge' Chinese machines like everyone else is true. To an extent. Many of Carba-Tec's machines do come from China and many from Taiwan, others elsewhere again. Some are perhaps no different, or very little, to other brands. Others however differ greatly though it may not be apparent on first look.

To explain - A given manufacturer may have a 'standard' base model machine available, which is taken up by some companies to sell as is. Other companies may change that base machine to incorporate additional optional 'upgrades', such as certain style guards; bearing guides; cast wheels not alloy; microswitches; different fences; better electronics or motor quality; better bearings etc etc etc, depending on the machine. Indeed, these may be readily available upgrades offered at a cost by the manufacturer OR researched and designed by the re-selling company and then modified by the manufacturer to include. These additions do cost more and are therefore reflected in a higher consumer buy price. Whether the additional quality is worth the cost is obviously a personal choice to be judged on the particular machine in question.

With respect, I can guarantee your thicknesser purchased at Bunnings for $350 is not the $900 unit at Carba-Tec. I am not suggesting you will not find a comparable or even the same machine for cheaper than at Carba-Tec, but certainly not with that price discrepancy. It is probably very similar to say, a $400 unit at Carba-Tec. This is a good example of all not always as it seems.

The huge price jumps in portable thicknessers reflect their country of manufacture. As a general rule, Chinese units will be between 200-450 retail. Taiwanese will be between 600-1000. About double which roughly reflects the manufacturers selling price, therefore the resellers buy price too. These units will often look very similar if not identical. It should be remembered that many of the Chinese production machines are in fact direct copies of their Taiwanese counterparts. The differences are twofold - labour is more expensive in Taiwan than in China; second - the internal components. Motor quality; belts, gears, bearings etc etc. What this means ultimately is this. The job it does is similar. The planed timber similar. If you only thickness occasionally, the cheaper unit will likely serve you well. If however you thickness material regularly or work the unit hard, or want to still be using it in 10 years, you may fair better with the more expensive unit. Longevity and reliability of consumable parts is the issue. Is it worth the difference? Well, that is the individuals choice.

That is my concise commentary... *sigh*

Richard - I don't say all this to undermine or attack you personally; nor is it expected that you should know these inner workings. It's just that common belief or heresy is not always correct and when this is stated on a forum open to the public, I feel that any misinformation should be addressed as a matter of better educating and informing all in their choices.

Cheers,

Jeremy.

[tim mullin]

Appreciate the responses guys.

Gotta confess I like the idea of heavy iron wheels AND a 3 HP motor. One or the other is available in saws smaller than 21", but the only saws I've found that combine both (Carbatec and Holytek HD) are 21-inchers. I *think* I'd be happier with a smaller saw (18-19"), if I could meet my other specs.

I'm sure I could do a motor swap on one of the smaller Carbatec models with heavy wheels, but that seems like an awkward way to go about it, when I'd have to resell the original 2HP motor.

[Nick]

I don't resaw Tim so cannot comment on specific machines but have you a Jacks up where you are, they usually stock the "good" quality european equipment such as Schepach e.t.c. as well as Holytec gear. But I must say I've gotten Carbatec gear which so far has been more than up to the task.

[tim mullin]

Nick O wrote:
I don't resaw Tim so cannot comment on specific machines but have you a Jacks up where you are, they usually stock the "good" quality european equipment such as Schepach e.t.c. as well as Holytec gear. But I must say I've gotten Carbatec gear which so far has been more than up to the task.

In fact, I just got off the phone with Jacks who called me back from my email enquiry. The Holytek BW5300H can be had for $3900 +gst. Rather more than I wanted to pay. He's following up and will get back to me, now that he's clarified I'm looking for heavy wheels, 3HP single-phase, in as small a footprint as possible.
I might also get in touch with Carbatec and see if they can upgrade their 17 or 19 saws with cast iron wheels with a 3HP motor. Worth asking, I suppose.

[J.F. Custom]

Nick O wrote:
...they usually stock the "good" quality european equipment such as Schepach e.t.c. ...

Hi Nick.

This was covered in a recent thread so I won't rehash much, but suffice to say a European name does not mean European manufacture. Just as an Australian name does not equal made in Australia. Scheppach is a case in point. Some of their machines - the very expensive models - are made in Germany. Most others, including many of their bandsaws, jointer/thicknesser combos and tablesaws are ex-China. Designed, in theory, in Germany but fully manufactured in China. Mind you, they are often shipped via Germany so of course you need to include that in the price...

Jeremy.

[Puff]

Can't speak for the quality of the bandsaws but cannot fault customer service from Macma. Dealt with a John Jansen. They are in Orewa and list three bandsaws between 19 and 21 inches. Am sure John will be able to fill in the specs and answer any queries.

[Nick]

Code: Select all

J.F. Custom wrote:

Nick O wrote:
"...they usually stock the "good" quality european equipment such as Schepach e.t.c. .."


Hi Nick.

This was covered in a recent thread so I won't rehash much, but suffice to say a European name does not mean European manufacture. Just as an Australian name does not equal made in Australia. Scheppach is a case in point. Some of their machines - the very expensive models - are made in Germany. Most others, including many of their bandsaws, jointer/thicknesser combos and tablesaws are ex-China. Designed, in theory, in Germany but fully manufactured in China. Mind you, they are often shipped via Germany so of course you need to include that in the price...  :shock:  :roll:  

Jeremy.


Well there you go! Thanks Jeremy & here's me thinking they were all ex Germany Rolling Eyes . Seems anything made in quantity now is outsourced to our asian brothers.

[DarwinStrings]

I am in the same boat as Tim but I can not go into a retail outlet and look at a machine unless I get on a plane and fly south. There is one business up here that will bring me up the Hafco/woodmaster 19 or21 at a good insured freight rate but does not have one on the floor(he is a Hare and Forbes franchise of some description). Is there anyone here who knows anything about the Hafco machines.

Jim

[vandenboom]

Tim Mullin wrote:
I've pretty much come to the end of my patience with a 14" bandsaw that really can't do anything in the way of resaw work. It's a great little saw, but I currently have it up on Trademe and looking for a larger, more capable replacement.

I can't provide advice on the big saw you are after, but I would question why you would not retain the one you have, unless space is a problem.

Firstly, you probably won't get what it's worth on Trademe. Secondly, switching blades on any saw, let alone a big saw, can be time consuming and just painful.
I purchased a 17" Carbatec model earlier in the year and just leave it set up for resawing, but kept my 12" saw with a small blade in it for finer work. Maybe a bit of luxury but I never regret it.
Frank

[Kim]

I'm with Frank, BIG kick arse saw named Aunty Jack, with loads of cast iron, horses to spare, and lots of big nasty teeth defending one long wall of the shed so you have room to feed him, and then a little saw called Puny Leon sitting where ever you left him last cause he's so easy to push around it just don't matter. Leon also makes a good stubbie holder...here Leon, hold this. I need to go over and clean the dust off of Aunty just in case he gets the shits and rips me bloody arm off.

Aunt16.jpg (49.69 KiB) Viewed 24721 times

Cheers

Kim

[J.F. Custom]

Toejam wrote:
... Is there anyone here who knows anything about the Hafco machines.

Jim

Yeah Jim, I do...
The Hafco is exactly the same base machine as the C-Tec - same manufacturer/factory in Taiwan. However it is the base model version. The Carba-Tec differs only in it's 'upgraded' features - Cast Iron wheels not alloy; taller rip fence; extended table size; key locking magnetic switch; full CE specifications and a 5yr warranty over the Hafco 2yr. Otherwise the same machine and both good for the price, that is, by modern bandsaw standards. This is not a C-Tec promotion by any means, just why there is a price differential between the two units. I doubt you would be disappointed either way, but then, there are always the old industrial solid cast units..... Sorry if we are hijacking your thread Tim...

Cheers,

Jeremy.

[DarwinStrings]

Thanks Jeremy, Tim may find this interesting anyway as it looks like there is a "Machinery House" in N.Z. who sell the Hafco.

Maybe we are looking at different models but the Hafco I am looking at does have cast iron wheels ( as well as cast iron fence, maybe not as high as the Ctec but higher than those low aluminium ones) the 21 Ctec weighs 163kg and the 21 Hafco weighs 265kg. Ctec table 685 x 540, Hafco 508 x 612. Ctec 300mm cut depth, Hafco 335mm. Both 3 Hp. Both bearing guide. Hafco comes with mitre guide but can't see it on Ctec. I can't see anything about CE conformity on the Hafco.

It is hard for me to make a decision as I can't see the machines so your advice is much appreciated Jeremy. I have been waiting around for a old school machine to do up but Darwin is small and opportunity limited. I may by a new one in the end Sad

Oh ...I have been quoted $2079au plus frieght ($300) on the hafco.

Also Tim, like the others if you go down to the 19 on the Hafco your also go down to 2 Hp, $500 cheaper though.

Jim

[J.F. Custom]

Sorry Jim - my bad.

I assumed you were referring to the standard 17, 19 and 21 models - I did not check their current offerings. My comments are relevant to their 17 and 19" models but they seem to omit the standard 21" and have opted for this beefier model. I can't comment here as I have had very little experience with this unit. The same manufacturer does make a heavier 21 and 24" model that C-Tec did import at one time, but they did not continue the item for long so I didn't get the opportunity to test or analyze them. I believe the 24" had a 5HP, 3phase motor! Shocked I can't be certain the Hafco is the same machine as the appearance is slightly different but I would assume it is. An email to them asking about the manufacturer of said 21" model would provide a quick answer though. If it is the same Taiwanese company as the smaller 17 and 19 models they sell; you would or should be in good territory. They are essentially a heavier, more industrial version of the others.

Another thing to enquire about is the ability to adjust the fence for drift. I remember the C-Tec (and note the Hafco too), had the round steel bar fence system. From memory, the older models with this style of rail (not on this machine as I didn't check) had very little ability to adjust the fence for blade drift. Perhaps the newer versions have some adjustment in the arrangment but worth asking.

Finally also worthy of mention to you and Tim is that a 3HP motor will generally require a 15amp outlet as well; unless it is three phase (415v) motor of course. This means the ground lug is larger and requires a specific powerpoint and preferably separate circuit. A 2HP motor can be operated on standard 10amp (three identical lug) house circuit. Perhaps this is common knowledge? If not, hope it helps.

Jeremy.

[DarwinStrings]

No worries Jeremy, it gets worked out in the end. The 21 Hafco has a 3 phase 5 Hp option which is no good to me. I have 15amp outlets though and I think you may be right about the fence not adjusting from the look of the pics, I will phone them and check that and the manufacturer but it does say "quality Taiwanese manufacture".

I am with you there too Frank, there is no way I am parting with my 1940's Australian made 12inch Hyco. It is a thing of rare beauty and very handy even though it is about as safe as a Aussie uniform in Afghanistan.

Jim

[Localele]

Definitely keep the small saw . It will make them both more productive and save a lot of time changing set-ups.

[tim mullin]

Well, lots of action on this thread since I was last on line. From what I've learned here and elsewhere, there is a Taiwanese factory that seems to be making all of these "medium duty" 17, 19 and 21" saws, regardless of who's putting their name on them: Holytek, Hafco, SMI, Carbatec, Macma, Somac, Topline or whatever.

As Jeremy explained, the importers are ordering their product with a particular selection of options, which is why they all seem similar, but different. The Holytek catalog gives a list of the various options/versions that they can supply under special order: CE/non-CE specs, fence type, mitre gauge material, blade guides, motor HP and housing type, table type and extensions, wheel materials, etc.

The Carbatec models, in general, are very well spec'd, compared to other versions sold by some other suppliers, all CE-spec with cast-iron wheels, and they're the only ones I've seen who advertise a 5-year warranty.

Other than these Taiwan-sourced saws, the next option seems to be "heavy-duty" models that weigh and cost twice as much, and generally come with 3-phase motors -- that's not in the cards.

I confess I was thinking that 3HP (2.2kW) motors were fine with a 10A plug/power point -- my 3HP Marquip compressor came new like that. If indeed I needed to upgrade the power-point and or circuit, that's not too big a deal for me -- I have two 20A circuits in the shop now, and have room on the RCD for another 2 if needed.

As for keeping the "small" saw, it's not so small -- it's a 14" Carbatec BAS-350 and is sitting right where I would want the larger saw. I agree, however, that having a second smaller saw is very convenient, in which case, I'd be tempted to pick up a 12 or even 10" saw that can do fine work, cutting inlay material, trimming plates to shape, etc.

I guess we'll see how my Trademe auction goes, and proceed from there.

[DarwinStrings]

I just ordered the Carba-tec 17 (on special at $1395au). Yesterday I phoned around and found someone with a 19 Woodfast (2hp) and he let me shove a few bits of wood through it. After doing so I decided there was no need for me to buy the 3hp model when I considered the amount of re-sawing I will do. After deciding on the 2hp it was easy enough to decide between the 17 and 19 on the price difference ($1740au for the 19) as there is not much difference between the two. My shed is starting to look like a add for Carba-tec, 2hp dusty, 150mm buzzer and now the saw. That 5 year warranty looks pretty good compared to the others too.

Good luck with your decision Tim.

Jim

[J.F. Custom]

Get yourself some decent blades now Jim - the one that comes with it, erm, leaves a lot to be desired. Shocked

The right blade choice for the job - and a quality blade at that, will make all the difference to your experience with the machine.

Jeremy.

[tim mullin]

Well, the decision's been made and the deed done. The 14" Carbatec BAS-350 left this morning -- thanks to Trademe -- so I was on the phone to Grant Oxenbridge, the boss at Carbatec in Auckland.

From the research I'd done, and the information shared on this thread, it seemed obvious that the Carbatec version of the Taiwanese-made saw is well spec'd out it is brought into NZ. I was particularly looking for the cast iron wheels. No one else in NZ imports the saw to this spec level, and no one else seems to offer a 5-year guarantee.

Grant agreed completely with Jeremy that the blade installed by the Taiwanese is for "display" and belongs in the trash. Carbatec NZ sources their bandsaw blades through a local saw doctor who makes up blades from Dakin-Flathers (UK) stock -- what Carbatec NZ show on their website is only a fraction of what Grant can get. So, we talked blades for a while and the deal was struck. It'll be the 19" 2HP model (for some reason the 19" is only $200 more than the 17" and both are significantly cheaper than they were a year ago -- I opted for the 19" to get heavier wheels).

BTW Jeremy, Grant says "hi" -- I gather you two have met.

Thanks for all the help this forum has provided in the decision making!

[DarwinStrings]

Mine arrived in good condition despite the fact that people had told me the freight company I used was "a bit rough". They were $210 to get it from Adelaide and the company Carba-tec used wanted $350.

I still have not set it up to use it but have ordered some blades from Henry's in Sydney (3/4 inch 1.3 TPI Bi-metal with a good set for green wood to start with)

The 17 and 19 are usually only $150 au apart Tim but when I enquired the 17 was $200 off as Adelaide and Brisbane stores had it on special. So it was the $350 that made up my mind in the end. Seemed the small difference between the two was that the 19 has bigger wheels and takes a 1' 1/4" blade where the 17 only takes a 1" blade.

I have the feeling Jeremy is still getting a commission after the both of us bought the Ctec Very Happy

Happy sawing Tim and hope you never have to use the 5 year warranty.

Jim

[J.F. Custom]

Hey Tim.

Good luck with your purchase, hopefully it suits your needs. I went 17" at the time because the 19" wouldn't fit in the workshop! I haven't tried those blades but UK blade stock should certainly be decent and a good blade makes all the difference. Enjoy.

Oh, and "Hi" back to Grant too Yes, we have met many times over years past.

Hi Jim.

Happy to hear yours turned up relatively unscathed. I have heard some horror stories over the years about some deliveries...

Commissions?? HA! Didn't get those when I worked there let alone post... Actually, I think it makes for better advice for the customer. The salesperson is not trying to sell you what you don't need, just for the sake of a kickback of sorts. I always tried to find out exactly what the customer wanted to achieve and then give the best options in various price brackets to achieve that.

Jeremy.

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