Metric

P Bill · Post by **P Bill** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:47 pm

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How many of you work exclusively in metric ? I know it's hard in luthiery because of the supply and discussion links to the U.S. Speaking as a tradesman who had to go metric instantly on arrival, it's a tool equal in significance to the router. Metric eliminates so much tedious math. A "mm" is smaller than 1/16 so if you visualy split a "mm" with a knife point it's inherently more accurate. Most important it's calculator friendly. When I did my apprenticeship we had to learn the decimal equivalents of a foot to use a calculator. For example 1/4 in. = .25, 1/2 in. = .5 etc. Once I knew all 12 in. but that was a long time ago .

I ask because I'm going to start a Benedetto archtop and have converted the measurements to metric. The metric/ imperial tape is the devil's own tool and should be used with all the usual safety precautions.
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Bill

Bob Connor · Post by **Bob Connor** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:47 pm

I'll use both metric and imperial in the same sentence.
But I'm a fairly confused sort of a person anyway.

Luke · Post by **Luke** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:48 pm

when i was doing my apprenticeship as a sheet metal worker we where taught in metric but the older guys at work talked in imperial a lot, so like bob have a handle on both systems but always covert to metric i mark out in metric think in metric i.e. mm never cm.
Metric is so simple.
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ozziebluesman · Post by **ozziebluesman** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:48 pm

G'day Bill,

I like to use metric for the reasons you pointed out. Much easier to use than imperial. I'm from the baby boomer era so I often find myself using imperial. An example is a piece about 2" long. Just habbit! I hate the time needed to work out drill bit sizes converting imperial to metric. I have a chart in the workshop now and that is a great time saver.

Cheers

Alan
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Alan R Hamley

peter.coombe · Post by **peter.coombe** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:49 pm

I use metric unless there is no choice. Just had to measure an instrument for a case in imperial. Hated it. High probability of mistakes.
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Lillian · Post by **Lillian** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:50 pm

I use metric and imperial in the shop, but use decimal feet at work.

The US decided to go to metric around 1975. You can see we are making great headway with that conversion.

graham mcdonald · Post by **graham mcdonald** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:50 pm

I flick between them all the time. Scale length I think of in inches, most other things in metric except for measuring action where I use 64ths of an inch. I was originally taught that by Jim Williams many years ago and it hust seems a good increment to use. 1/64" high or low at the 12th fret is a difference of 1/32" at the bridge. For thicknessing and carving tops and backs I use both - mm and decimal inches - as 1mm = .040" and I just convert those without even thinking about it.

Couldn't live without my 6" metric/imperial ruler.

cheers

graham
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www.mcdonaldstrings.com

DarwinStrings · Post by **DarwinStrings** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:51 pm

I am a metric fan, and always convert inches to millimetres . I still call a 45 x 90 DAR piece of timber a 4 by 2 though and if I was talking to someone from the USA I would convert that to a 2 by 4.

Jim

Botanical names ROCK!!!

Dave Olds · Post by **Dave Olds** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:51 pm

Definitely metric for me .....

Imperial seems totally messed up to me - sometimes talking in 16ths, 32nds and 64ths, then switching to decimals of inches and 'thou'. What's that all about - it seems to want the best of both worlds huh.

Now if we could just drag the US out of the dark ages then metric could achieve the world domination it deserves !!

P Bill · Post by **P Bill** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:52 pm

I shouldn,t be allowed anywhere near imperial .I ballsed up the decimal foot, should be 3in.=.25 6in.= .5 ........
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Bill

Kim · Post by **Kim** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:52 pm

Same deal, grew up with imperial at primary school, switched to metric at high school, went to work in the building industry with a mix of old and new school tradies with metric/imperial tapes in the kit, moved on to a metric specific wood-shop that specialised in stairs and then found an interest in steel string guitar building with its roots in the USA and have been corrupted into having both metric and imperial tapes and rulers in my shop and a kind of bastardized lingo that communicates both in conversation that leaves people blinking at me....yeah mate, I need 2 @ 6 x 1, 1 of em @ 2.4 long and the other @ 1.8...tah. Rolling Eyes
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Puff · Post by **Puff** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:53 pm

Think imperial but a lot of the communication has to be in metric with most under 40 years of age here not having imperial as a language.
Jim I understand there is, in correct sawyers parlance, a difference between 2x4 and 4x2 in the way the lumber is sawn. One has the growth rings "running out" on the 2' face and the other on the 4" face. Can't remember which was which though. Same for 1x6 and 6x1 etc.

liam_fnq · Post by **liam_fnq** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:54 pm

I'm young enough to not have ever used imperial as a matter of course. Once the imperial increments get below about 1/8" I get sketchy. Naturally I find metric far more user friendly.

It amazes me the number of blokes at work who wouldn't know if a foot was the length of a match box or a bus.
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vandenboom · Post by **vandenboom** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:55 pm

I work between the two pretty well these days.
But then when I listened to John Mayes' DVD's a while ago where he does all the small stuff in "thou", I was back to square one again. Once I planted 1/8"=125 and 1/64" = 15 thou in my head, I sort of got on top of that as well. But I find myself having to do these annoying 2 step conversions.

Frank

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:55 pm

Canada converted to metriv when I was in year 10. And because we are so dependant on everything US it really wasn't all that imperative to learn metric. Now I still have a really good feel for miles but use km. A sheet of plywood is is 4' X 8' and i haven't got a clue or any frame of reference what anything more than about 200 mm is.

However if its small unit's I usually go with metric in mm. as I find that much easier to use. Don't ask me why though, cause I don't know. Confused
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Allen R. McFarlen

Kim · Post by **Kim** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:58 pm

So it has become quite clear that most Aussie and Kiwi instrument makers use either Metrial of Impetric when building a guitar...glad we managed to clear that up. Cool

Cheers

Kim
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Puff · Post by **Puff** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:58 pm

You're onto it mate -and number eight wire for anything structural.

christian · Post by **christian** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:59 pm

Imperial drives me insane i simply cant get my head around the values Shocked i'll stick to metric thanks.

kiwigeo · Post by **kiwigeo** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:00 pm

Think yourself lucky you dont work in the oil patch. Thanks to the yanks we have bits and drill pipe measured in inches, our mud comes in barrels, the mudweight is measured in sg, depth is metric and the units on the wireline sonic log are microseconds per foot....oh and we have the pipe being strapped in metric feet.

The WA mines dept demands that all reporting be in metric but the yanks working in the clients office cant handle anything metric so all my reports have to contain metric units AND their imperial equivalent.
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Lillian · Post by **Lillian** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:01 pm

And to add to the insanity....

Martin, which "foot" do you use when you convert? International foot, US foot or US Survey foot? They all have different decimal values for the conversion to/from metric.

We should have made the conversion years ago, but no, its all about us, we won't, it will cost too much, its too hard, I don't understand it and, and... 30 years we "tried" to convert. Doesn't say much for us now does it that the only industry that managed to convert was the soft drink industry? Everyone knows what a 2 liter bottle looks like.

kiwigeo · Post by **kiwigeo** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:02 pm

Lillian wrote:
And to add to the insanity....

Martin, which "foot" do you use when you convert? International foot, US foot or US Survey foot? They all have different decimal values for the conversion to/from metric.

Conversion we use out here is 3.2808 ft to a metre.

In reality we generally use a roughneck's foot......this can vary in length depending how much is missing off the tape measure and the IQ of the roughneck holding the tape.....and theres also a wind factor to consider. If they cant find the tape...then a foot gets measured...with a foot.

Rounding of decimal figures is also an intriguing thing out here....to a driller 10.9 gets rounded to either 10 or 11 depending on what side of the bed he got out of that morning. This one drives me absolutely nuts sometimes.....
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Lillian · Post by **Lillian** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:02 pm

Good on ya Martin. That is the conversion factor for a survey foot.

As for the roughneck foot, definitely close is good enough and close is a relative term.

DennisK · Post by **DennisK** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:04 pm

Eh, whatever's fine with me. I'm working in inches for my first guitar build. Since that's what most steel string guitars are described in, I have a better intuitive feel for the size then. But whenever I get to building a classical, I'll probably use metric. Same for violins.

Inches aren't so bad on guitars. There's nothing big enough to be measured in feet, so you don't have to deal with the stupid 12 inches per foot thing, and the common divisions are thousandths and powers of 2. Thousandths are natural because I have 10 fingers and a calculator, and powers of 2 are natural because I've done lots of computer programming in my life Smile

The trick is not to mix thousandths and fractions too much, so you don't need the conversion factors. I use thousandths for plate thicknesses and scale lengths, fractions for everything else. But I guess I do mentally compare thousandths to my concept of 1/8 inch sometimes.

jeffhigh · Post by **jeffhigh** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:04 pm

Of course, true Australian measurement is neither metric nor imperial.
Fine measurement was traditionally done using the (politically incorrect anatomical term)hair.
Slightly larger measurement were done using the axe handle
And large volumes were measured by comparison to the water in Sydney Harbour, as "sydharbs"

Localele · Post by **Localele** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:05 pm

I use a few old world measures as well.Once the sides are bent the measurements don't matter much as everything has to fit the body and the top doesn't mind if it is measured in inches or mm. The one that is hard to get is cm.I think only schoolies use those.This chart may help for the smaller measures to help stop the confusion.
img~

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