Florentine cutaway

[Craig]

This is what I have on the go at the moment
I'm pretty happy how the cutaway mitered join worked out , especially considering it being a fairly light colour where you can't hide much ,and also because it was pommele figured ,,,,, and Mahogany. No visable glue line and all the figuring lines up. Craig's a happy camper !










I can describe how I did it , if any of you guys are interested

[Bob Connor]

I'm interested.

[maurie]

Very neat Craig
I'm interested also
Maurie

[Allen]

I'm interested, but you're going to have to wait for the 1 week mandatory banning after posting that Craig.

[jeffhigh]

Beautiful work Craig !

[kiwigeo]

He's banned right now...for asking if we were "interested".

I'm interested, but you're going to have to wait for the 1 week mandatory banning after posting that Craig.

[Lillian]

Normally I tend to think we are somewhat loose with banning, but this time I have to agree whole heartily. Asking if we are interested.... shesh!

That's right up there with asking if we'd like to see one of your new jigs.

[Nick]

Anybody want to buy a whole load of tonewood and some tools?
That's disgustingly good Craig, makes me feel like I'm knocking up packing crates.
Martin or Allen...are you able to hand out life bans or is one week the maximum penalty?
You gotta let us in on your 'secret' method.

[Craig]

He's banned right now...for asking if we were "interested".

I'm interested, but you're going to have to wait for the 1 week mandatory banning after posting that Craig.

O.K. ,,, I was just having you guys on

Here's how I did it ;














With great difficulty !










To the business :

I gave this great thought , as my goal was for an invisable joint. What is the best method of making the tightest joint possible ?? I could only think of a plane and shooting board , as the joins on my tops and backs done this way can't be seen. Sandpapered edges don't work quite so well as a clean planed finish. I.M.O.

From my drawn out plans , I established the correct angle these mitres would meet . ( also taking into account the curves of the cutaway tip )

Before bending the treble side and cutaway piece , I stacked them ( much like you do a stacked neck scarf joint ) , and layed them on a mini type shooting board . Using a scary sharp little block plane , I matched them perfectly.

I then bent them on my fox style bender, but paid attention that the very ends (where the miters are ) were well supported and well clamped to conform to the template /inside mold shape . The tendancy is for these ends to not quite comply , so additional attention is required , with an additional clamp or two over the bending machine to hold these very ends down.

The cutaway was bent on the bending machine also . I've made an inside mold much like the body mold we use. It sits in the machine where the body mold normally sits. I've made this to slightly overbend this cutaway shape . It's as well I did as this Mahogany ( like most Mahoganies ) suffered quite a bit of spring back. Not too dramatic , but enough to have me quickly install them in my outside building mold the moment I got them out of the bending machine ,, and vowing to not remove them until such time as I had the box closed !!!


I wanted to pull in the cutaway shape from the template line as I felt it gave a more pleasing look. This asymmetry gave the cutaway a more cool ' tucked-in ' look which I really like. A little like some solid body electrics are shaped.

To achieve this I placed a 3 1/2 "length of 10 mm.brass rod between the outside mold and cutaway side which had it sprung in to my desired shape. This brass rod not only gave me this asymmetry I wanted but more importantly , it held the end of the side miter in a very straight line ( mahogany likes to distort, cup or ripple when being bent ) . Not that mine suffered too much of this rippling , but the rod ensured a VERY straight edge with which to meet it's mitered partner.

You can see this brass rod still there in this boat picture . It demanded springing the side a little but not enough to worry about. After I installed heavy duty liners , a fairly large Spruce corner block , and a few other little extras , it was as solid as a rock.



I then glued in the headblock and the cutaway corner block ( making sure it was an exact fit for this cutaway shape ).

Next I glued the end of the cutaway piece to the side of the headblock. Being Mahogany ,it too suffered from a little 'spring back' after bending . This worked to my advantage , as when the glue had dried on the headblock and I encouraged the mitered end to meet the side miter at the tip of the cutaway ,it was happy to snug right up against it . It looked to be a perfect fit , but before glueing, I managed to get a caul against it and was able to clamp this caul from the outside of the mold whist it set. I'm only sorry I wasn't able to get any pics of the operation , but beleive me when I say I was way too busy getting it right than worry about taking pictures ! ,,, next time maybe ,,

All in all it wasn't easy , but the result made it worth while to me . Even with my magnifying glasses , I can't see a glue line

[jeffhigh]

Craig I really hate the look of most cutaways, but the shape of yours looks right. I think it is the asymetry, never would have thought of doing that.

[Craig]

Thanks a heap Jeff. I'm not to keen on a lot of cutaways either . I'll take it as a big compliment considering you normally hate cutaways . I've been calling this one a ' tucked Florentine ' . I'll be using this in my future builds from now on as it's so , umm,,,, sexy ( for want of a better word )

I'd also like to take this opportunity to give another big thanks to you Jeff , for all the engineering advice you have been giving us guys . In particular ( but not only ) C.F. reinforcement. I have used quite a lot on this guitar , but will reserve the details for another thread.

Many thanks also to Lillian ( XX - that's two big kisses ) , Maurie, Allen ,Bob and Martin.

Nick ,my fellow Kiwi mate ,,,, If this one turns out half as good as your Maccaferri type masterpiece I'll be an extremely happy man. Cheers for your disgustingly nice comment though

As I said ,it's not an easy process and there are a number of steps where it could all go very wrong Lining up the corner block to the first miter glue-up , and getting rid of any trace of squeeze out , so that the partnering mitre isn't obstructed just being one example.


Whoops , just realised I've posted this reply whilst being banned,, several times . Well , all I can say is " up ya kilt ! "

[HiString]

That is such an elegant design................I may have to start redrawing my archtop before I attack the top plate.

ChrisO

[Lillian]

:bh


That's just wonderful. It took rereading your explanation to realize why I liked your cutaway, I'm firmly planted in Jeff's camp in regards to cutaways. I didn't realize until you mentioned the pipe that it was asymmetrical. That really does make a huge difference. It looks right. It looks balanced and it doesn't look like a fix to a bad day at the bender.

[Paul B]

Looking good my friend, you just keep getting better and better.

Is that an extra veneer of spruce I see down between your heel block and the sides?

Oh, and you wouldn't believe it, I came home after having the mother-outlaw looking after the kids for two frigging nights, to find the neck on my first guitar snapped at the heel block. She denied knowledge, but my daughter blabbed. I'll post some pics on the repair when I stop feeling ill just thinking about it. God I spent a lot of time on that thing (as you know).

[Craig]

Paul mate , I feel sick for you . That's a real hard one to cop . Set too as quick as you can and do the repair . Sooner the better and you'll quickly brighten up. I'm sure this is good advice.

Best regards ,

[Stu]

Congrats Craig on an amazing cutaway mitre. Perfect.
Sheesh, you sure it ain't photoshopped?

And commiserations to you Paul. That really bites the big one.
I'm doubly sickened by the outright denial of the incident.


cheers, Stu

[Craig]

Is that an extra veneer of spruce I see down between your heel block and the sides?

.

Well spotted Paul ! . It's a Sassafrass capping strip on the liner between the headblock and cutaway block to help reinforce the cutaway .Actually , it's a piece of Heavy duty Walnut Fox type liner I used there ( the two piece type), I had left over from a previous build . Doesn't match the rest of the liners , but I figured it can't be seen once the box is closed , so it's function over form in this case. I did it on the bottom liner too , only with a piece of Mahogany for appearances sake. I added an extra liner capping on the other side of the corner block also , which extends round to near the waist . By the time I'd finished reinforcing the cutaway area ( a rather large corner block as well --- Spruce to save weight ) , I reckon it's stronger than a non cutaway guitar

A picture shows this better "




Before anyone mentions it ,,,, NO , the masking tape isn't there to add any reinforcement ! It's there to catch any glue squeeze out glueing the top on. I just peeled it off after glueing on the top leaving it clean as a whistle for my adjustable neck hardware.

You'll also notice the fairly long foot on the headblock . This , to help stop any headblock rotation once strung up. Almost as important as reinforcing the top of the headblock from rotation IMO.

You can see this foot has racing stripes !! I figure this will definatley make the neck play faster [size=0]another bad joke [/size]

In reality , they are there to cap the end of the foot . I could only make this foot around 1/2" thick to leave enough room to fit the bottom adjustable neck hardware. Not much strength with only 1/2 " thickness ,especially with this grain orientation , so I fitted three carbon fibre tubes right through. The foot cap and racing stripes are to hide the end of these tubes.




As I said earlier , I've used quite a bit of carbon fibre reinforcement on this guitar , but I'll reserve most of the details for another thread . In the meantime though, note the No.1 back brace has a carbon fibre cap . ( think ' neutral axis ) This ,to help any flattening of the back radius caused by headblock rotation/ string tension.
Meeting up with the headblock foot , it makes for a pretty strong area.

No photoshopping on that cutaway miter shot either Stu ya cheeky bugger.

In all seriousness ChrisO ( HiString), I reckon my ' Tucked Florentine ' design would look awesome on an archtop.

[Taffy Evans]

Great work Craig, I love to see the care and thought that goes into such work. There always seems something to be gained, no matter how little, for future use by others, or an idea or procedure that confirms that what we did was right.

Craig, I have used the foot style neck block on my Resonator guitars, with a foot top and bottom. I also do the same with the tail block, a foot top and bottom. This enabled me to do away with the rod that goes between the two blocks that is common on that type of guitar to stop things collapsing. I find it strong as you stated.

Nice work Craig thanks for sharing.

[Craig]

Cheers Taff. I can't see the point of taking all the knowledge we have gained/ learned / discovered to the grave without sharing this information . It's one of the main reasons I belong to the forum . That ,and the friendships we gain, the fun and humour we share

The other side of the coin is that I feel it only fair we credit those we learn these things from . My thanks to Jeff Highland ( our resident engineer ) in an above post being a good example.

I don't know as I would be putting a foot on my tailblock ( soundboard end at least) though Taff . To me that seems like killing out some vital soundboard space in a very important area. I do quite the opposite and bevel the thing so it has the same width as the liners . Hey ! , but what do I know . These things are so mysterious in how they function anything's possible.
Yes, I too have been using a headblock foot in my builds so far. I can't see how it could be robbing the instrument of any appreciable string reponse and it must help keep headblock rotation to a minimum

[Kim]

No photoshopping on that cutaway miter shot either Stu ya cheeky bugger.

Must have cost a bloody fortune for a block of pommel hog that thick Craig...pfffffffffffft! Some people are so wasteful and will spare no expense to impress.




Well done smart arse, your work is impeccable

Cheers

Kim

[Taffy Evans]

I hear what you are saying Craig, and in a flat top guitar I agree, but in the Reso guitar there this not much top wood after cutting a hole for the metalwork, and it's a thicker top and also coupled to the back plate, so I do not look for a lot of resonance from the top. I do not use a soundwell [often 3 ply maple] stiffening up the top in my Resonator guitars so I do get a bit more of a woody tone mixed with the metal cone.

[Craig]

Must have cost a bloody fortune for a block of pommel hog that thick Craig...pfffffffffffft! Some people are so wasteful and will spare no expense to impress.




Well done smart arse, your work is impeccable

Cheers

Kim

Ah ! so your on to me ya sly bugger . Never thought of that Kim ,,, ummmm. No it wouldn't work ,, not unless you carved the back and sides out of one solid block Doesn't sound like much fun. Thanks mate

Sorry Taff , I can see now you were referring to Reso's . My mistake . Thought I must have misunderstood something

[kiwigeo]

Oh, and you wouldn't believe it, I came home after having the mother-outlaw looking after the kids for two frigging nights, to find the neck on my first guitar snapped at the heel block. She denied knowledge, but my daughter blabbed.

Trade both those women in on some tonewood.....they sound like very dangerous people.