Hi guys!
I'm only new to the forum and I'm almost up to setting up my first build. I'm really only learning guitar and haven't experimented too much with guitar action, or played on many different guitars so i have no feeling for this.
Mostly i play fingerstyle pieces such as those from Michael Hedges, andy Mckee and Antoine dufour. For anyone not familiar these incorporate alot of hamerons,pulloffs and slap harmonics at good pace.
I'm looking to set the action on my guitar for a bit more playability and train my right hand with a bit more control for fret buzz.
I currently play on a dreadnought that has a 12th fret low E string height of about 2.5mm and a high E about 2mm.
At the nut its about 0.5mm ( I dont have feeler gauges so this is an estimate using calipers)
I wanted to set up my new built guitar (a Martin style 00) with a more playable action.
If you were setting up a guitar for a guitarist like me how would you go about it?
Any advice would be much appreciated.
Also if there were any other builders close to the ACT I would love to come and have a chat with you sometime.
*edit - Oh and sorry if this has been brought up before. I tried to use the search function on the forum and for some reason it just kept giving me all the forum posts as a search result. Didn't matter what i typed.
-Dave
How would you set the action for this player.
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Rick Turner
- Blackwood
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For as specific as I think you want to be, you'd be best off working with a good luthier who can watch you play and see where going low with the action might get you in trouble. This gets to being something very hard to do with mere words or even photos.
Rick Turner
Guitar Maker, Experimenter, Diviner
www.renaissanceguitars.com
www.d-tar.com
Guitar Maker, Experimenter, Diviner
www.renaissanceguitars.com
www.d-tar.com
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fingerpickengood
- Wandoo
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- Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:33 pm
Hi Dave
From a players perspective not makers the first thing to consider is scale length as this will effect tension, secondly what strings are you using, the kind of music you refer to requires lots of altered tunings often tuned down to as low as C or even B for the 6th string.
The stability of your neck will be important, personally I would go for a medium action (what ever that is ) as this will cope better with changing tension (unless you want to adjust the truss rod every time you tune).
Best advice visit a setup expert, play some pieces in different tunings when your there, get him to do the setup, go home play the guitar then go back a week later once the guitar has settled down for fine tuning.
Michael
From a players perspective not makers the first thing to consider is scale length as this will effect tension, secondly what strings are you using, the kind of music you refer to requires lots of altered tunings often tuned down to as low as C or even B for the 6th string.
The stability of your neck will be important, personally I would go for a medium action (what ever that is ) as this will cope better with changing tension (unless you want to adjust the truss rod every time you tune).
Best advice visit a setup expert, play some pieces in different tunings when your there, get him to do the setup, go home play the guitar then go back a week later once the guitar has settled down for fine tuning.
Michael
Thanks for the replies guys.
Great advice!
So far i tend to only tune as low as D on the 6th string. Mostly DADGAD. I have gone down to B though occasionally.
I usually run medium gauge 0.013-0.056 but am trying light gauge at the moment 0.012 - 0.053.
It seems alright but just doesn't have that nice roundness to the sound. Just a bit more tinny. Alot easier to play though.
This is why i wanted to run mediums but lower the action a bit.
Thanks again for the replies.
Regards
Dave
Great advice!
So far i tend to only tune as low as D on the 6th string. Mostly DADGAD. I have gone down to B though occasionally.
I usually run medium gauge 0.013-0.056 but am trying light gauge at the moment 0.012 - 0.053.
It seems alright but just doesn't have that nice roundness to the sound. Just a bit more tinny. Alot easier to play though.
This is why i wanted to run mediums but lower the action a bit.
Thanks again for the replies.
Regards
Dave
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ozziebluesman
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G'day Dave,
I have a 000 strung up with a Bluegrass acoustic set, 12-56s. A few of the big string makers offer this gauge. My guitar is tuned a tone below concert pitch and it sounds and playes very well. The guitar also is tuned to dadf#ad, daddad and dadgad often. Because the guitar have been set up a tone below it plays well and handles all the above tunings without fret buzz. If you tuned it up to concert pitch the action may be a little high but my guitar rarely goes there.
Just another approach.
Cheers
Alan
I have a 000 strung up with a Bluegrass acoustic set, 12-56s. A few of the big string makers offer this gauge. My guitar is tuned a tone below concert pitch and it sounds and playes very well. The guitar also is tuned to dadf#ad, daddad and dadgad often. Because the guitar have been set up a tone below it plays well and handles all the above tunings without fret buzz. If you tuned it up to concert pitch the action may be a little high but my guitar rarely goes there.
Just another approach.
Cheers
Alan
"Play to express, not to impress"
Alan Hamley
http://www.hamleyfineguitars.com/
Alan Hamley
http://www.hamleyfineguitars.com/
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fingerpickengood
- Wandoo
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ozziebluesman
- Blackwood
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I need to spend more time on the tuning Michael. It really brigs out wonderful tone from the 000. I'm making some slow progress through an Al Petteway tune called Eureka Hotel. I have been able to obtain a copy of the tab and it is a great little tune in my opinion. Lack of time unfortunately like most of us here suffer from.
Cheers mate
Alan
Cheers mate
Alan
"Play to express, not to impress"
Alan Hamley
http://www.hamleyfineguitars.com/
Alan Hamley
http://www.hamleyfineguitars.com/
DADGAD is a nice tuning. But learning all those new shapes for chords...grrr =)
Another one i find amazing is DAEEAA
It just has a wonderful sound.....especially the harmonics at 7th and 12th frets.
What are your opinions on fanned frets. Do you think its worth the trouble to keep intonation when lowering tunings. I have to say that i haven't picked up any change in tuning as i go up the neck in lower tunings. But that said i definitely dont have perfect pitch.
Any experience with this? I am thinking of trying to build one for my next guitar. They do look quite interesting.
-Dave
Another one i find amazing is DAEEAA
It just has a wonderful sound.....especially the harmonics at 7th and 12th frets.
What are your opinions on fanned frets. Do you think its worth the trouble to keep intonation when lowering tunings. I have to say that i haven't picked up any change in tuning as i go up the neck in lower tunings. But that said i definitely dont have perfect pitch.
Any experience with this? I am thinking of trying to build one for my next guitar. They do look quite interesting.
-Dave
No personal experience with fanned frets, but contrary to popular belief, it is not about improving inotation.
A fanned fret arrangement improves the tension and sound on the lower downtuned strings without adversely affecting the higher strings and inproves the ergonomics for fretting compared to a straight extra long scale.
A fanned fret arrangement improves the tension and sound on the lower downtuned strings without adversely affecting the higher strings and inproves the ergonomics for fretting compared to a straight extra long scale.
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fingerpickengood
- Wandoo
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- Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:33 pm
Check out Simon Fox site http://www.deepnorthmusic.com/ he is an Australian living in Canada and a great player particularly in altered tunings
sorry to highjack the thread,
Michael
sorry to highjack the thread,
Michael
If I can share an observation rather than make a suggestion, I was playing a guitar that had a horrible setup...probably the worst I've played. This due to the fact the heal was cracked allowing the neck angle to change, compounded with a very poor setup in the first place.
At first, it was really really tough. Fingers hurt, both the tips and the muscles. I really had to concentrate on correct finger placement as the distance from fretboard to natural string height was so great I was shunting strings left and right. Due to health I was really limited in what I could afford and had to make due.
Now, I have callouses as big as a Buick, my hand strength has increased very very well. I'm vibrato-ing .012's and 0.13's in a way I never thought possible, as well as getting to chords that I never would of dreamed of before. Most of all I've learned that guitiar playing has so much more to do with hand strength and endurance than any understanding of chord theory. An idiot can understand "you.. put.. your.. finger... there!" (Ask JJ Donohue
)! But without the training to do it... it's useless and soon forgotten.
Also I've learned that a guitar with hgh setup allows and intensity of tone and avails a stronger strike, thus volume, than a guitar that is setup for.. uh...sissy fingers!
Long story short, if your training? Set it up, as some would call it, poorly. For playing in front of people... Yeah! Yeah! Use as best as you can get!
I pick up a decent guitar now and I'm happy! Like, asking a friend of mine, why he hit himself, mistakenly, in the mouth with a hammer he says..."Because it feels so good when I stop!"
At first, it was really really tough. Fingers hurt, both the tips and the muscles. I really had to concentrate on correct finger placement as the distance from fretboard to natural string height was so great I was shunting strings left and right. Due to health I was really limited in what I could afford and had to make due.
Now, I have callouses as big as a Buick, my hand strength has increased very very well. I'm vibrato-ing .012's and 0.13's in a way I never thought possible, as well as getting to chords that I never would of dreamed of before. Most of all I've learned that guitiar playing has so much more to do with hand strength and endurance than any understanding of chord theory. An idiot can understand "you.. put.. your.. finger... there!" (Ask JJ Donohue
)! But without the training to do it... it's useless and soon forgotten.Also I've learned that a guitar with hgh setup allows and intensity of tone and avails a stronger strike, thus volume, than a guitar that is setup for.. uh...sissy fingers!
Long story short, if your training? Set it up, as some would call it, poorly. For playing in front of people... Yeah! Yeah! Use as best as you can get!
I pick up a decent guitar now and I'm happy! Like, asking a friend of mine, why he hit himself, mistakenly, in the mouth with a hammer he says..."Because it feels so good when I stop!"
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Dennis Leahy
- Blackwood
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- Location: Duluth, MN, US
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Hi Billy, long time no see!
I think I can see where you're coming from, but I have to disagree with you. Seems to me the most common reason that people start guitar and then quit is from having a poorly setup, difficult to play guitar. Seems to me the biggest reason that people do not make progress and grow as a guitarist is because the instrument is uninspiring and probably because the instrument is still set up improperly. Do you know that feeling when you are downhill skiing - fast - and you are in (for lack of a better definition) a Zen state of pure experience and no thinking? Do you ever play guitar and find yourself so far inside the music, that you are no longer consciously directing your fingers to play, and you reach some sort of a transcendent state where you are creating (or channeling?) musical phrases and passages that are improvisational and completely new to you? Well, I never had even a single hint of that on my first few guitars with shitty setups, only brief glimpses of that state with instruments that were set up better, and finally now I frequently "disappear" into that state with a well set up high quality guitar. I feel like, if you climb a mountain wearing worn out tennis shoes, you'll get rock bruises on the soles of your feet. It won't make you a better mountain climber, and it won't make the journey to the top and back more enjoyable.
Let's give players the very finest instruments we can make, and let's set them up the best we possibly can. We'll be a catalyst in their inspiration, the musicians will actually write and perform music at a higher level, and the overall vibe on planet Earth will be a little bit better.
Dennis
I think I can see where you're coming from, but I have to disagree with you. Seems to me the most common reason that people start guitar and then quit is from having a poorly setup, difficult to play guitar. Seems to me the biggest reason that people do not make progress and grow as a guitarist is because the instrument is uninspiring and probably because the instrument is still set up improperly. Do you know that feeling when you are downhill skiing - fast - and you are in (for lack of a better definition) a Zen state of pure experience and no thinking? Do you ever play guitar and find yourself so far inside the music, that you are no longer consciously directing your fingers to play, and you reach some sort of a transcendent state where you are creating (or channeling?) musical phrases and passages that are improvisational and completely new to you? Well, I never had even a single hint of that on my first few guitars with shitty setups, only brief glimpses of that state with instruments that were set up better, and finally now I frequently "disappear" into that state with a well set up high quality guitar. I feel like, if you climb a mountain wearing worn out tennis shoes, you'll get rock bruises on the soles of your feet. It won't make you a better mountain climber, and it won't make the journey to the top and back more enjoyable.
Let's give players the very finest instruments we can make, and let's set them up the best we possibly can. We'll be a catalyst in their inspiration, the musicians will actually write and perform music at a higher level, and the overall vibe on planet Earth will be a little bit better.
Dennis
Another damn Yank!
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J.F. Custom
- Blackwood
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- Location: Brisbane
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Hi Dave,
I'm very nearly finished a seven string 'multi-scale' or 'fanned fret' electric guitar just now. Jeff is spot on about the reasons for this construction method. I've used a 685mm and 635mm scale length combo for this model. It makes 'acoustic' sense to me to use this method on extended range instruments that may use a variety of tunings however it is not for everyone. It also complicates construction somewhat not to mention availability of hardware.
Jeremy.
I'm very nearly finished a seven string 'multi-scale' or 'fanned fret' electric guitar just now. Jeff is spot on about the reasons for this construction method. I've used a 685mm and 635mm scale length combo for this model. It makes 'acoustic' sense to me to use this method on extended range instruments that may use a variety of tunings however it is not for everyone. It also complicates construction somewhat not to mention availability of hardware.
Jeremy.
@Craig - Definitely keen to have a chat. I've sent you an email
@ Billy T - I understand what you are saying definitely. But there is a limit to speed, tone, when playing on an instrument that is poorly setup. To me for example
Player A has a well setup guitar - He can play a piece without too much hand strain, muscle fatigue, and hence focus more on technique and getting a good tone as he can practice longer
Player B has a badly setup guitar - He can still play the same piece say. But half the time was spent getting the endurance and even then probably can't practice for as long as player A.
I believe Player A would become a better player faster then player B. You only need to apply as much pressure as your guitar needs you to. So why struggle and not be able to practice for longer when a simple change in Action would give you so much more. Most players only play songs on their own guitar so I don't mind not being able to play aswell on someone elses guitar because their action is slightly higher. I mostly would play on my guitar.
So in short with a better setup guitar i believe i can practice for longer before fatigue sets in.
But i do agree with you that guitar endurance is definitely something worth striving for.
@ Dennis - Definitely true. Sometimes when the instrument just feels good you can feel the music flow more rather than fighting with the instrument. And definitely if i was wearing tennis shoes i wouldn't be climbing more than one mountain =)
@j.F Custom - Wow had a quick look at your website. Very nice rosette pattern. One of the best i've seen. I really like it. Would love to see pictures of your fanned fret when its finished. Also if you feel there is a big difference in clarity of sound for the lower tunings etc. How would you do the bridge on an electric fanned fret? That would be difficult i would imagine. I can see how to do it on an acoustic but on an electric? milling machine?
@fingerpickengood - thanks for the link. I'm listening to it now.
-Dave
@ Billy T - I understand what you are saying definitely. But there is a limit to speed, tone, when playing on an instrument that is poorly setup. To me for example
Player A has a well setup guitar - He can play a piece without too much hand strain, muscle fatigue, and hence focus more on technique and getting a good tone as he can practice longer
Player B has a badly setup guitar - He can still play the same piece say. But half the time was spent getting the endurance and even then probably can't practice for as long as player A.
I believe Player A would become a better player faster then player B. You only need to apply as much pressure as your guitar needs you to. So why struggle and not be able to practice for longer when a simple change in Action would give you so much more. Most players only play songs on their own guitar so I don't mind not being able to play aswell on someone elses guitar because their action is slightly higher. I mostly would play on my guitar.
So in short with a better setup guitar i believe i can practice for longer before fatigue sets in.
But i do agree with you that guitar endurance is definitely something worth striving for.
@ Dennis - Definitely true. Sometimes when the instrument just feels good you can feel the music flow more rather than fighting with the instrument. And definitely if i was wearing tennis shoes i wouldn't be climbing more than one mountain =)
@j.F Custom - Wow had a quick look at your website. Very nice rosette pattern. One of the best i've seen. I really like it. Would love to see pictures of your fanned fret when its finished. Also if you feel there is a big difference in clarity of sound for the lower tunings etc. How would you do the bridge on an electric fanned fret? That would be difficult i would imagine. I can see how to do it on an acoustic but on an electric? milling machine?
@fingerpickengood - thanks for the link. I'm listening to it now.
-Dave
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J.F. Custom
- Blackwood
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- Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 9:13 pm
- Location: Brisbane
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Hi Dave,
Thanks for the compliments.
Will post some pics and info on this build at some point. The bridge does present one issue to overcome and incorporate in the design. Each string essentially has its own scale length and this is beyond the range of any compensation adjustment built into standard bridges. The most common answer is individual bridges for each string. These are available from a few manufacturers, ABM and ETS are just two examples. If you have access and the means, then yes, you could mill your own according to your design and chosen scale lengths.
I have on this occasion used GraphTech individual string saver saddles, mounted on a solid brass, fully custom designed and cnc machined base. It has been made to the specific angles and specs required for my particular design on this guitar, then black chrome plated.
Pickups are another consideration. Standard pickups could be used however I have on this guitar elected to have my pickups also custom cnc machined to the angles specific to their relative positions, then hand made and wound. I'm liking the results thus far and can't wait to hear it. Not too long to go now.
On a final note, fret slotting a fingerboard such as these is an interesting process. The jig I made and used to do the job I posted in the jigs section of this forum not long ago should it interest you or should you follow through with your thoughts on building one.
Cheers,
Jeremy.
Thanks for the compliments.
Will post some pics and info on this build at some point. The bridge does present one issue to overcome and incorporate in the design. Each string essentially has its own scale length and this is beyond the range of any compensation adjustment built into standard bridges. The most common answer is individual bridges for each string. These are available from a few manufacturers, ABM and ETS are just two examples. If you have access and the means, then yes, you could mill your own according to your design and chosen scale lengths.
I have on this occasion used GraphTech individual string saver saddles, mounted on a solid brass, fully custom designed and cnc machined base. It has been made to the specific angles and specs required for my particular design on this guitar, then black chrome plated.
Pickups are another consideration. Standard pickups could be used however I have on this guitar elected to have my pickups also custom cnc machined to the angles specific to their relative positions, then hand made and wound. I'm liking the results thus far and can't wait to hear it. Not too long to go now.
On a final note, fret slotting a fingerboard such as these is an interesting process. The jig I made and used to do the job I posted in the jigs section of this forum not long ago should it interest you or should you follow through with your thoughts on building one.
Cheers,
Jeremy.
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