temperature/humidity

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kiwinoz62
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temperature/humidity

Post by kiwinoz62 » Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:55 pm

Hi all
I'm just a beginner at luthiery & find it very fascinating that with a little time & effort some-one can turn bits 'n' pieces into an amazing piece of work.
My dilemma is living in sydney :) with the temp/humidity up & down like a yo-yo, how do I control this aspect in my work environment.
My workshop is basically a double garage 6m x 5m constructed from colourbond (metal) sheeting, with no insulation or air cond. The only ventilation is the double door & side windows.
My concern is that when I start with bits 'n' pieces I don't end up with more than when I started :lol: because of temp/humidity.
The wood warping , cracking etc, etc, etc. . .
Would any members have advice ? Any would be appreciated.

I've read the topic ' Relative humidity & Actual moisture content

thx, kiwinoz62

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Allen
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Post by Allen » Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:09 pm

Another bloody Kiwi in Oz. :shock:

Welcome to the forum nevertheless. :lol:

Good that you've got humidity control in mind. It usually happens that the excitement takes over, and bits get glued together, and then when things go pear shaped, one thinks that there must be some secret to it.

Many of us live in conditions not all that suited to building delicate instruments, and have had to work around the shortcomings of our work space.

For myself, I have a Delonghi dehumidifier in a spare bedroom where I keep all my wood, and my Go-Bar deck. Tops and backs are glued up in this space, as is all the bracing. I take the pieces out to the workshop to do any carving, sanding etc. in order to keep the wife on my side, then back into the RH controlled room. This goes for all the parts of the instrument until the "box is closed". Once it is, then I'm not so concerned, as eventually it's going to have to come out into the real world.

Also, I've learnt to have both the top and back glued on to the rims in the same day in order to minimise any changes to the geometry of the instrument owing to small changes brought about by fluctuations in the RH, even though they may be small.

Hope this helps, and keep asking questions. There aren't any dumb ones.
Allen R. McFarlen
https://www.brguitars.com
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Cairns, Australia

Ricardo
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Post by Ricardo » Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:42 pm

Yeah i have learned the hard way, i made a few backs and tops, only to find that they are now so distorted i dont know what to do with them, they were braced, any ideas on salvaging?

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J.F. Custom
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Post by J.F. Custom » Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:37 pm

Hi Kiwinoz62 - whoever you are - apart from a Kiwi in oz that is... :) and welcome.

You answered your own question to an extent when you said "...no insulation or air conditioning...". A bare colourbond shed is going to be very vulnerable to changes in the environment. There are several options.

The first port of call would be to ensure the shed 'seals' well. Insulation will help both to minimize the changes occurring within the shed in the first place, as well as save money and/or make the work any dehumidifier has to do, less; ie - more efficient.

A dehumidifier such as a Delonghi model mentioned by Allen which I also use, will allow you to set and stabilize your environment meaning you are no longer at the whim of the weather. You can get combo dehumidifiers/air-cons but the latter component is purely for builder comfort. These all work well in small well sealed environments.

At the very least, purchase yourself a quality hygrometer (humidity monitor) and do the most critical jobs when it reads roughly 45%. This should limit any further future problems with that aspect at least.

It also pays to re-cap what Allen touched on. One thing you really want to do, particularly if finance dictates the last method mentioned above, is work quickly. You do not want to do one job; leave it for a month or more; then the next and so on. You will compound any issues you may face doing this. Ideally you would like to build the entire guitar as quickly as possible to avoid 'building in' too many differing environmental changes within different components of the guitar. Else face the consequences down the track...

Hope this helps.

Jeremy.

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Arnt
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Post by Arnt » Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:58 pm

Ricardo wrote:Yeah i have learned the hard way, i made a few backs and tops, only to find that they are now so distorted i dont know what to do with them, they were braced, any ideas on salvaging?
Ricardo, if the plates have not cracked or split, just chisel the braces off, make sure you give the wood time to stabilize in a humidity contolled environment, and rebrace. Any and all (cross grain) glue ups should be done when the humidity is right. Many other building operations, like shaping parts etc. are less critical and can be done even if the humidity situation is not ideal.
Arnt Rian,
Norway

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kiwigeo
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Post by kiwigeo » Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:44 pm

Insulation is a good start. As far as humidity control....you have a choice of controlling the entire shed or just part of it. If controlling the whole room isnt an option then build a cupboard with humidity control in which you can store tops etc while theyre not being worked on. You could also look at isolating off part of the shed with plastic sheeting and installing a dehumidifier in same.

Me...I made sure that my last lot of house renovatons were so huge and expensive that adding a fully climate controlled workshop represented a small percentage of the cost of the whole project.

Hesh1956
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Post by Hesh1956 » Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:04 am

Hi kiwinoz62 and welcome to the ANZLF!

Humidity issues have caused a great deal of pain to builders for all of time but only when they disregarded RH and some of the great advice already posted in this thread and others.

But since you understand this in advance you will do fine I am sure.

As mentioned the temp considerations are more for builder comfort although temperature can impact how much or how little water the air will hold. It also can greatly impact how glues and finishes cure.

I live in the Midwestern United States, Michigan home of ground zero for the death of the US auto industry to be precise... Our winters can be sub-zero F for short periods of time and our summers can approach, although rarely, 100F. As such I have to dehumidify in the spring, summer, and early fall and humidify in the fall, winter, and early spring. On some days I have to do both in a single day but not at the same time.

So I am always either hauling water away from my dehumidifier or schlepping it to the humidifier. I feel like a water boy on a sports team... :roll: :lol:

But, regardless of the effort required my shop maintains a 42 - 48% RH and 72 - 77F temp at all times. It's a basement shop that I walled off and insulated with R-13. The house is built in sand which acts like a giant cat litter box wicking away moisture from the structure.

My dehumidifier is a 30ish pint Goldstar that seems to work fine and it's currently in it's 4th year of use. Dehumidifiers will give off a great deal of heat which is a bit of a problem in the summer since it warms up my shop to the level where I am killing various lights so that I can stand to work in the place. They are also noisy and in my opinion its the kind of grinding, relentless noise that wears on me...

I was going to plumb my dehumidifier with a hose to the sump pump but once I had my drywalled walls painted I just couldn't bring myself to punch a hole in my walls.

For several years I used a humidifier with a wick/filter and that worked fine except that the wicks need frequent cleaning (not a fun job...) and the performance of wick based humidifiers is greatly impacted by the condition of the wick. It would perform very well for a couple of days with a clean wick and then it would start to perform poorly until I cleaned or replaced the wick.

I just purchased an "Air-O-Swiss" humidifier and I am in the 24 hour soak/wait cycle right now setting it up to turn on later this evening. The furnace is now on here in Michigan which means that the dehumidifier gets shut off and the new humidifier gets set-up and turned on.

I bought this thing because it does not use wicks or filters and instead vibrates the water with ultra-high-frequency to atomize the water into a mist. In addition it has a demineralization cartridge that cleans the water going into the tank and an ionic silver stick that uses the power of silver to kill bacteria.

But wait - there's more... :D

This unit will also heat the water to 190ish F killing bacteria and then mist the humidity into the shop at 105F. It uses the same amount of power as a 40 watt light bulb.

I am very interested to see how this unit does and also very grateful to not have to be cleaning stinkin humidifier filters any more.... In addition, a couple of times a week I have players/friends over to jam in my shop and in the age of the swine flu I thought that an anti-bacterial humidifier might be a plus.

Anyway the point of all of my nonsense here is that it's standard fare for wooden instrument builders to have to go to some great lengths to have a properly set-up environment to build. And once you determine what will work best for you it's on to the great fun of building.

Welcome aboard.

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