Melbourne nitrocellulose supplier

[vandenboom]

I need some nitro lacquer and have purchased from Durobond in Sydney up until now. But again, shipping costs more than the product. Does anybody know of a Melbourne supplier.
I noticed that Sherwood paints have a nitro lacquer called Excelac, but there is no info re its suitability for guitars. All it really says is ..."EXCELAC is a nitrocellulose lacquer very suitable for most timbers, however it is mainly used for pine furniture where more flexible coating is required."
btw, I know that I am almost asking a question a day these days - hope that doesn't put in "pain in the a..." class.
Thanks. Frank.

[rocket]

hey vandenboom, i had sourced durabond for nitro and was going to use their product for my next job, i know they have one that is specifically for guitars. Deno said that Morgans paints supply nitro, but i don,t know if it;s the same stuff or not. cheers.

[Stu]

Here's the distributor list for Mirotone throughout Melbourne.
http://www.mirotone.com/Victoria-Distri ... fault.aspx



I'm using Mirotone Mirocat 3220
I also 1220 thinners and 1242 for a slower cure.

http://www.mirotone.com/Mirocat/default.aspx


Stu

[vandenboom]

Stu -had a look at the product info for 3220. I am not up with much of the terminology re finishing products. The term "nitrocellulose" does not appear anywhere in this product spec. So is it a nitrocellulose?
Do you use this on acoustics, or electrics.
My application is dreadnoughts.
Thanks. Frank.

[Bob Connor]

Frank - it's a pre-catalysed laquer based on nitro.

Both Allen and I use it as well as Stew and we all reckon it's great. (on acoustics and electrics) If you do a search on any of our guitars on the forum you'll get an idea how it looks finished.

The only drawback as far as I can see is that the thinners is bloody expensive - more than the laquer itself.

[obmit]

Hey Guys

We currently have switched from mirotone to Ameron Coatings.

This is what I'm using currently.

http://ppgpmc.com.au/docs/0244%20Classi ... y%2008.pdf

The product is great.

Cheers

Tim

[Richard]

I've been using Mirotone precat lacquer for a number of years now. The majority of my finishes are satin (3220/30 I believe), but I still go through a few 4L tins of their gloss every year and I find it does a great job. It polishes up beautifully and is about as painless to apply as finishes come.

[Bob Connor]

I've been using Mirotone precat lacquer for a number of years now. The majority of my finishes are satin (3220/30 I believe), but I still go through a few 4L tins of their gloss every year and I find it does a great job. It polishes up beautifully and is about as painless to apply as finishes come.

The satin Mirolac is what Maton use on the majority of their instruments.

[Allen]

As Bob said, I've been using Mirotone 3220 on all my instruments, and can't fault it. It's also readily available in most places, so you don't have to pay for shipping.

[Localele]

I have used Mirotone for about 10 years and it very easy.No noticeable shelf life either in the drum ( I buy 20l drums ) or if it is left in the spraygun.Just bought some retarding thinners a to try out after all these days of rain. Trying to spray to a show deadline in a flood is not my idea of fun.

[vandenboom]

I have looked at the Mirotone data sheets for Mirocat and Mirolac but I have learned not to assume that their limits on things are firm. I'm trying to determine whether I can use this stuff with my current equipment and home situation. I also need to figure out how the application procedure differs from what I have done up until now with Durobond nitro.

Equipment : I use a small IWATA touch up (HVLP conversion) gun with 1mm tip. I would thin Durobond nitro 2:1 (nitro:lacquer). Small gun but it worked well. I can't get a bigger tip for this gun.
Spray environment : Home backyard on the right day!!
I do have a Star High Pressure gun with 1.7mm tip but I don't want to use that at home again.
Mirocat data sheet stipulates 1.5-2mm tip and thinning in 10-20% range.

Past procedure summary:
- after pore filling, thin coat of shellac
- 5 coats of lacquer - approx 1 hour between coats
- next day - prelim level - then another 5 coats 1 hour apart
- cure for 2 weeks, then finish.
I talked to the Mirotone rep. He was pretty adamant about using their sealer. He was very doubtful about application without.

Questions:
- can I use the touch up gun with 1mm tip
- do I need a sealer other than Shelac
- how much thinning
- do I need a different application procedure/timing
- what sort of minimum temps & RH would you work to

As always, your help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks. Frank.

[Bob Connor]

Allen should be able to answer you on the tip - he's the expert on spray guns

We thin about 50:50 or 60:40

We don't use sealer and spray directly on to z-poxy or spruce/cedar on the top

On a warm day about 20 minutes between coats.

Leave for a couple of weeks before but I have sanded back and buffed after a few days and the results have been fine.

Don't spray below 16 degrees

[kiwigeo]

Trying to spray to a show deadline in a flood is not my idea of fun.

Move to Adelaide and youll never have to worry about rain or floods

[Allen]

The Iwata is a great little gun, and the only way to know if the tip is going to work for you is to try it. If it seems just a bit to heavy to spray the way you like to spray, then add some thinners and put on one more coat to get the same approximate build.

I mix about 50:50 or a bit thinner. Just do it by eye. Mirotone is pretty easy and forgiving to spray. I absolutely never spray below 20 degrees, because it just hardly every gets that cold up here.

The RH is nice to have at that perfect 40%, but that's really not a concern either. If it's cool and humid, then add up to 10% of their retarder. I always use just a splash of it, no matter what, as it helps keep the surface open an allow the solvents to gas off more efficiently. IE, not sealing over on the surface and having solvents trapped underneath and struggle to get out. For a lacquer finish to be fully cured, it first needs all those solvents to gas off

If you are use to letting it sit 1 hour between coats, that's great. The solvents need to get out sooner or later, and by letting it sit before hitting it with another coat, you're well on your way to having a fully dry and cured finish.

I usually just let it go about 20 minutes between coats though. Sometimes I get sidetracked and it's a lot longer.

I spray 5 coats on a fully pore filled and prepped body. Sanded up to P320. Don't go finer, as the finish does need some "Keying" for good adhesion. Let sit for a week. Level out with P320 dry so I can see all those shinny spots that tell me that there are still lows. Once totally flat, spray another 5 coats. Let dry for at least a week, but more is always better.

The finish could be good to go as is most times, as all the foundation for the final coats were right. Then it's just a matter of a light sand back with P600, or even P800 is there isn't any dust to take out. Switch to P1200 or P1500, then buff. Sanding through these steps on a body and neck takes from 10 to 15 minutes.

If you are relying on the lacquer to be doing the pore filling and leveling of your finish, then you need to change your mind set. It's going to take you much longer, use too much product, and the longevity of the finish will be in doubt.

I've never used Mirotones sealer either. I spray directly onto Spruce, and most other woods have either been pore filled with WEST Systems, or the egg white method. Never had an issue.

If the sealer that they are talking about is their "Sanding Sealer", then as far as I know, and what the local paint rep tells me is this is is Nitro Lacquer with talc added for body. I've seen heaps of it used and it looks milky white, and if you apply it any more than the thinnest of coats, it's going to start clouding your finish. The more you apply, the worse it's going to get.

The local paint rep's seen several of my guitars, and tells me not to change a bloody thing.

Good luck

[Stu]

Sanding sealer , from my practical experience is a complete waste of money and use when your clear coats will do everything the sealer is supposed to do, but doesn't cloud or milk up.

I spoke to the Mirotone rep. in Melbourne and grilled him a little about
my intended method of refinishing and he agreed about the drawbacks of
using sanding sealer, especially when instruments require a much more transparent and wet looking finish than typical furniture making.
I also got the nod for using a 2 pack sealer coat as a base to help void off sinkback, to which he said was also no problem.

I've sprayed around 11 degrees here in Melbourne with no problems
other than slower cure times.


It is very forgiving stuff and the more you work with it , the more you know the limits to pushing it's working boundaries.

Allen's a great source of info with all things Refinish-related.


Cheers, Stu

[vandenboom]

Thanks everyone for your feedback, especially Allen for the detailed process. It even looks like I will be able to get this done in Melbourne's June if I pick my days.

I have not used a retarder before, but clearly I need to have some of this if spraying this time of year. If I do add 10% retarder, and I stick with Bob's minimum temp of 16C, is one hour between coats still ok, or do I need to give it longer?

I was struck by the range of thinners on their list - again showing my ignorance about much of this. I intend using 60% gloss so will get the 1220 thinner on Stu's recommendation unless someone tells me otherwise.

I also sink a vinyl decal in the lacquer on the headstock so I trust all of that will still work ok.

Now I will go and spend some time digesting Allen's spraying tutorial which I came across the other night.
Thanks again everyone.
Frank

[J.F. Custom]

Trying to spray to a show deadline in a flood is not my idea of fun.

Move to Adelaide and youll never have to worry about rain or floods

I absolutely never spray below 20 degrees, because it just hardly every gets that cold up here.

Gotta love Australia

I'm jumping on the bandwagon here too Frank. I have used Mirotone for years. Durabond claim their lacquer is more 'flexible' to suit instruments but that could be marketing - might not be too. Some of the American brands of Nitro specifically for instruments have similar claims. I've also heard another reputable luthier claim that Durabond remains a little clearer while Mirotone tends to yellow a small amount with time. I don't have first hand experience to be able to judge but I've never been disappointed with the results of Mirotone - even down the track some years.

You will always get that sort of response from a rep unless you know them personally - they do have a vested interest in their own product. Most companies will say their products can't be used over other types of finish/brands/products/without their primers etc but most of it is bollocks. A little common sense doesn't go astray so far as combining products. Nitro goes well over shellac or epoxy and apparently egg white though I hadn't tried it. Years ago I even finished a harp with a Danish/Shellac combo that worked due to the poly-urethane content of the Danish and compatible bases - and to good effect too.

Having said all that, there should be no reason any good quality Nitro is not capable of the job. I'm not familiar with the Sherwood Excelac but if it is high quality - perhaps the flexibility is similar to the Durobond? Could be worth a try...

Good Luck,

Jeremy.