Tonight, I just read Kim's horror story highlighting the OHS risk in using epoxy. Like a lot of other builders, I thought all my pore filling problems had gone away a couple of builds ago when I tried it for the first time. I was planning to use it on my current two dreadnought builds this weekend.
I have become very mindful of the safety stuff after developing allergies to wood dust and lacquer in the past 9 months - runny nose, sneezing, puffy eye - I hate it. So the zpoxy is in the bin.
So what now for pore filling? I'm not going back to the LMI water based filler - I found it very frustrating on wood with larger pores. That's what drove me to zpoxy. Even though zpoxy seemed to darken the finish slightly, it also left a much more natural finish than the tinted LMI water based fillers. I have no experience with anything else.
Any suggestions, preferably clear, if that's possible.
Thanks. Frank.
Zpoxy warning discovered-so what now?
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vandenboom
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Bob Connor
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Frank,
Many builders use Zpoxy without issue, and many of them will 'never' develop a problem anything like I did. Epoxy is just one of those things which, dependent upon the individual in question, can trigger an immune response. The problem is that no one can know their own threshold of exposure before it is reached.
Once reached however, that individuals immune system establishes a known response to that particular invader and will continue to trigger with much more vigor for much less exposure than was first required from that point forward and, from what I understand, the more robust their immune system, the more severer the response will be. This is the problem, I don't think in itself epoxy is very toxic, its just that it's molecular structure is so small that it gets right into your blood stream and your body has no other way to deal with it other than to simply ignore it and wait for it to 'go away' (this is most people), or attack it.
If the later, because the body has no predetermined defence, the production of T cells becomes the only solution. To understand the gravity of this situation, it needs to be understood that as far as our immune system goes, these T cells are the big red nuclear button. T cells don't mess about, their job is to destroy ALL tissue in the affected area so it will rot or peel away and take the invader with it. There is no discrimination in the process, we are talking ALL cells here, skin, nerve, everything. My images show this in action in the form of contact 'dermatitis', could you possibly imagine a response like that in the lungs???
At the end of the day my post serves well to highlight the need to be cautious about how we manage our exposure to epoxy. The hope is that with proper precautions (and they really are much more restrictive than manufacturers of these products tend to indicate is necessary in their instructions for use.) one can limit levels of exposure and keep their immune system in the dark never revealing the chemical key which opens their Pandora's box.
Believe it or not, I still use epoxy today because for some task nothing else will do the job. But, I have a whole new respect (and tyvex wardrobe) when ever I go near the stuff. The fan is always ON, the respirator gets fresh cartridges a LOT more regular and the silicone free barrier cream gets slathered on....If you want a picture just think of a Dr Who inspired Dalek crossed with a Big White Teletubbie with blue hands.
Be Safe
Kim
Many builders use Zpoxy without issue, and many of them will 'never' develop a problem anything like I did. Epoxy is just one of those things which, dependent upon the individual in question, can trigger an immune response. The problem is that no one can know their own threshold of exposure before it is reached.
Once reached however, that individuals immune system establishes a known response to that particular invader and will continue to trigger with much more vigor for much less exposure than was first required from that point forward and, from what I understand, the more robust their immune system, the more severer the response will be. This is the problem, I don't think in itself epoxy is very toxic, its just that it's molecular structure is so small that it gets right into your blood stream and your body has no other way to deal with it other than to simply ignore it and wait for it to 'go away' (this is most people), or attack it.
If the later, because the body has no predetermined defence, the production of T cells becomes the only solution. To understand the gravity of this situation, it needs to be understood that as far as our immune system goes, these T cells are the big red nuclear button. T cells don't mess about, their job is to destroy ALL tissue in the affected area so it will rot or peel away and take the invader with it. There is no discrimination in the process, we are talking ALL cells here, skin, nerve, everything. My images show this in action in the form of contact 'dermatitis', could you possibly imagine a response like that in the lungs???
At the end of the day my post serves well to highlight the need to be cautious about how we manage our exposure to epoxy. The hope is that with proper precautions (and they really are much more restrictive than manufacturers of these products tend to indicate is necessary in their instructions for use.) one can limit levels of exposure and keep their immune system in the dark never revealing the chemical key which opens their Pandora's box.
Believe it or not, I still use epoxy today because for some task nothing else will do the job. But, I have a whole new respect (and tyvex wardrobe) when ever I go near the stuff. The fan is always ON, the respirator gets fresh cartridges a LOT more regular and the silicone free barrier cream gets slathered on....If you want a picture just think of a Dr Who inspired Dalek crossed with a Big White Teletubbie with blue hands.
Be Safe
Kim
Last edited by Kim on Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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pat foster
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sebastiaan56
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Frank,
Robbie O'Brien generously posted one of his excellent video tutes on the subject a while ago. Kim also did a post on egg white and wet and dry.
I switched to West systems and have found that it nowhere as aromatic as ZPoxy or the local brand. Im probably kidding myself but it may be a safer option to consider. Always with gloves and plenty of ventilation.
A good kinesiologist will help you with your intolerances BTW.
Robbie O'Brien generously posted one of his excellent video tutes on the subject a while ago. Kim also did a post on egg white and wet and dry.
I switched to West systems and have found that it nowhere as aromatic as ZPoxy or the local brand. Im probably kidding myself but it may be a safer option to consider. Always with gloves and plenty of ventilation.
A good kinesiologist will help you with your intolerances BTW.
make mine fifths........
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Dulcimerpete
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This is my first post to this forum. I have been lurking and learning for months but I held off posting until I have something useful to say. Thank you all, you have saved me a lot of time.
Epoxy resins have so much to offer us it would be a pity if we didn't use them. I think most people can avoid sensitivity and allergy problems if a few commonsense rules are followed. I worked in a laboratory casting epoxy resins two or three times a week for over twenty years. We had 5 or 6 permanent staff and we trained over 40 people in that time. I can only recall one person developing sensitivity to epoxy resin. Of course, we did not accept anyone with existing sensitivity into the training program.
Liquid epoxy resin or epoxy hardener should be kept away from the skin. If contamination occurs (and it will, sometime or other) the resin should be scrubbed off using warm water, solvol (or any old-fashioned alkaline soap)and a strong scubbing brush as soon as the contact is discovered. Don't panic about this, it takes some time for the resin to soak in but it may mean stopping the job in hand until the skin is clean. NEVER clean epoxy off the skin with a solvent (like acetone or alcohol). This just drives the resin into the skin.
Uncured resin and hardener oxidize into a sticky mess in the air. This is particulary noticeable on the necks of storage bottles and the sides of tins. The sticky oxidized resin is just as dangerous as the fresh resin. Always use disposable gloves when pouring resin from a container and clean the sticky mess from previous spills. (You can use acetone to do this if you wear gloves). You should be able to pick up the bottle or tin without any hint of sticking.
All mixing should be done in disposable pots or cups with disposable icy-pole sticks. I use disposable brushes because no matter how hard I try I can never get all the resin out of the bristles. We had a large plastic rubbish bag open beside each workplace which we emptied every evening. Each bench had a roll of paper towel and a box of disposable gloves.
Cured resin seems safe to handle.
Dust from cured resin (from sanding) does not seem to be a problem on the skin but should not be breathed in. Use a dust-stopping respirator when sanding.
I came to epoxy resin work with experience in painting and lacquering. I found I had to forget all I had learned about spillage and cleaning up. But it was worth it. I am 72 and I can still use epoxy resin without a problem.
I hope this helps.
.
Epoxy resins have so much to offer us it would be a pity if we didn't use them. I think most people can avoid sensitivity and allergy problems if a few commonsense rules are followed. I worked in a laboratory casting epoxy resins two or three times a week for over twenty years. We had 5 or 6 permanent staff and we trained over 40 people in that time. I can only recall one person developing sensitivity to epoxy resin. Of course, we did not accept anyone with existing sensitivity into the training program.
Liquid epoxy resin or epoxy hardener should be kept away from the skin. If contamination occurs (and it will, sometime or other) the resin should be scrubbed off using warm water, solvol (or any old-fashioned alkaline soap)and a strong scubbing brush as soon as the contact is discovered. Don't panic about this, it takes some time for the resin to soak in but it may mean stopping the job in hand until the skin is clean. NEVER clean epoxy off the skin with a solvent (like acetone or alcohol). This just drives the resin into the skin.
Uncured resin and hardener oxidize into a sticky mess in the air. This is particulary noticeable on the necks of storage bottles and the sides of tins. The sticky oxidized resin is just as dangerous as the fresh resin. Always use disposable gloves when pouring resin from a container and clean the sticky mess from previous spills. (You can use acetone to do this if you wear gloves). You should be able to pick up the bottle or tin without any hint of sticking.
All mixing should be done in disposable pots or cups with disposable icy-pole sticks. I use disposable brushes because no matter how hard I try I can never get all the resin out of the bristles. We had a large plastic rubbish bag open beside each workplace which we emptied every evening. Each bench had a roll of paper towel and a box of disposable gloves.
Cured resin seems safe to handle.
Dust from cured resin (from sanding) does not seem to be a problem on the skin but should not be breathed in. Use a dust-stopping respirator when sanding.
I came to epoxy resin work with experience in painting and lacquering. I found I had to forget all I had learned about spillage and cleaning up. But it was worth it. I am 72 and I can still use epoxy resin without a problem.
I hope this helps.
.
Regards,
Peter
Peter
Welcome to the forum Peter, and don't be shy about piping in to any conversation. Your experience here and advice are really appreciated. We even like dumb questions because it gets us all thinking about why we go about things the way we do. Most of us have read a response to something that we take for granted, but seeing a different slant on we then try something new. That's why these type of forums are so great.
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sebastiaan56
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Mark McLean
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Why are we so sold on pore filling anyway?
It was Bob Taylor who said, "A long time ago, some guy figured out that if you keep spraying and sanding a guitar, you can make it really shiny. We need to exhume that guy and shoot him!" Most guitar buyers now think that an instrument should have a finish that looks like a pane of glass, and most guitar builders keep delivering that product. It is not really necessary, and it is probably acoustically bad. Other instrument makers and players don't have this fixation. When did you ever see a violin or a cello with a nitro finish? I actually like a guitar with a finish that doesn't get between you and the real wood. I think that an oil or shellac finish with open pores, or minimal pore filling, is beautiful. Also easier, more repairable and more ecologically friendly. Sure, if I was trying to make a living selling my guitars I would probably go broke because that is not what the market wants. But maybe we should educate the punters.
OK, you can start yelling at me now.............
It was Bob Taylor who said, "A long time ago, some guy figured out that if you keep spraying and sanding a guitar, you can make it really shiny. We need to exhume that guy and shoot him!" Most guitar buyers now think that an instrument should have a finish that looks like a pane of glass, and most guitar builders keep delivering that product. It is not really necessary, and it is probably acoustically bad. Other instrument makers and players don't have this fixation. When did you ever see a violin or a cello with a nitro finish? I actually like a guitar with a finish that doesn't get between you and the real wood. I think that an oil or shellac finish with open pores, or minimal pore filling, is beautiful. Also easier, more repairable and more ecologically friendly. Sure, if I was trying to make a living selling my guitars I would probably go broke because that is not what the market wants. But maybe we should educate the punters.
OK, you can start yelling at me now.............
Welcome to the ANZLF PeterDulcimerpete wrote: Cured resin seems safe to handle.
Dust from cured resin (from sanding) does not seem to be a problem on the skin but should not be breathed in.
You make some very good points that should be taken on board by all but I find the term "cured resin" to be a little broad. These days I would not advise anyone to sand 'any' epoxy product which has not set up for a period of at least 48 hours. With epoxies it is best to assume the greener the mix, the meaner the mix, especially when you consider that most product instructions will tell you that full cure is not achieved until around 7 days.
The instructions for use of Zpoxy state one of the advantages of the product is that it can be sanded after just 6hrs given proper ambient and the lack of any warning to the contrary can lead one to falsely believe it would be quite safe to do so. I can confirm from first hand experience that to do so and then re-wearing the same dust impregnated clothing was most probably the main cause of my own affliction. This and the fact that because of it's small molecular structure, the fumes that epoxy give off when still wet find no barrier in human skin and clothing led me to suffer a quite devastating reaction that is ongoing to this day.
Just to be clear, it is worth pointing out that like yourself, I too worked with epoxies for many years. My own exposure came from being a laminator in the boat building industry during my mid to late teens, and then later, in the field of carpentry and then in general wood working and repairs. One week of laying up boat hulls presents more exposure to epoxy than most would experience in a lifetime yet it was all essentially without issue.
It was only recently last September that I made some horrible discoveries. First is that not all epoxies are created equal. You have high temp, low flex, fast set, super strength, self levelers, sanding, finishing, fire resistant, anti-fungal etc, etc, etc and the list goes on and on through hundreds of variations. All of these different properties can only be achieved by mixing different chemical compounds and therefore it can be a dangerous practice to generalise. The second thing I discovered is that you do not necessarily get any warning when your body decides it has had enough of this stuff, it just pulls the big guns and your in trouble. So aside from taking the normal precautions such as protective clothing and respirator etc, I would strongly advise against anyone allowing sanding dust to stay in contact with their skin or working without a fan to blow the fumes away from them.
My advise, get in, get the job done, and then get away from the stuff ASAP. Leave it to cure at least 48hrs before you sand. Wear a mask, gloves, long sleeves and pants and launder these articles of clothing between each sanding session and don't forget the bloody fan especially when working with a mix. If you follow this advice you should be OK and will probably never develop epoxy contact dermatitis. But if ever you start getting any redness or itching of your inner forearms, lower legs, creases in your neck, elbow, back of knee or any of the softer areas of your body including your genitals keep away from 'ANY' further exposure and wait and see if it clears 'before' you touch the stuff again. If it does not settle, go and see a DR and take a copy of my epoxy post with you.
I say this because most GP's don't have a much experience with this sort of stuff as it is just not part of their day to day. Unless otherwise instructed by a specialist, chances are most would first prescribe antihistamines to calm the itch however it is my own experience that until you are prescribed steroids to shut down your immune system you will be in for a hell of a time as your skin tissue and the nerve endings in the affected areas are being destroyed.
The torment of this process is beyond description and lasts non-stop for a number of weeks. Antihistamines will help you to sleep for an hour after each dose and keep you somewhat stupefied in between times while the process continues, but if you want it to stop, and you will, you will need to take Prednisone tablets, so you will eagerly do so regardless of how much bad press you've read about the side effects of corticosteroids. DAMHIKT
viewtopic.php?t=1056
Cheers and don't forget the bloody fan!
Kim
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Paul B
That's odd, I use the timbermate wood fillers and find them easy to use, and ready to sand in about 1/2 an hour. Sanding is easy, it's like sanding plaster or chalk. You can pretty much pore fill an entire guitar (two coats) in about an hour and a half and most of that time you're doing something else while the filler dries.Allen wrote: Also used Timbermate wood paste fillers. They are a real pain to use, and don't work nearly as well as the other methods.
You have to scoop some out of the jar and water it down in a mixing cup then just spread the slurry on the wood, using it neat is difficult - don't ask how I found that out.
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Dulcimerpete
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Thanks all for the friendly welcome. I don't want to highjack the thread so I will just say that I am about to start a new build so I will take some shots and keep you posted.
Kim, I agree about curing. It is best to wait as long as possible for the resin to cure before sanding and to not leave dust in contact with the skin.
I should add that I don't fill wood pores and I use oil finishes on my dulcimers.
Kim, I agree about curing. It is best to wait as long as possible for the resin to cure before sanding and to not leave dust in contact with the skin.
I should add that I don't fill wood pores and I use oil finishes on my dulcimers.
Regards,
Peter
Peter
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Mark McLean
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Really looking forward to seeing your work Pete.Dulcimerpete wrote:Thanks all for the friendly welcome. I don't want to highjack the thread so I will just say that I am about to start a new build so I will take some shots and keep you posted.
I should add that I don't fill wood pores and I use oil finishes on my dulcimers.
Cheers
Kim
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vandenboom
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Pat - sorry for not replying to this earlier. I never tried that, but it makes sense. My main issue with this filler was that when used on back & sides with large pores, even after 3 applications, I found that once I started to rubout the lacquer finish several weeks later, that holes appeared. I have not had the problem since with zpoxy. Do you think that the shellac in the pores also reduces some of this shrinkage?pat foster wrote:Frank,
I'm wondering if you've done a wash coat of shellac before pore filling when using LMI's water-based filler. I use that method to keep the filler from staining the non-pore wood.
Pat
Frank
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