Selmer Build Pics

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Nick
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Post by Nick » Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:38 pm

Mike Thomas wrote: In the violin world I believe that there is a generally recognised link between the stiffness of the back and projection of sound.

The Archtop is very similar although it doesn't have a tone post (which I believe is another important aspect to the violin sound) I guess but Bob Benedetto mentions in his brilliant DVD set that carving the recurve in particular, is the most important step in the process, leave it too thick and the guitar has no voice, too thin and projection is lost and the voice has no focus on any particular tone. So I kind of, rightly or wrongly, relate to the back of my Selmers (because I haven't made a 'flat-top' yet!) with the same logic.
At least, I think that's what he said. :)
Haha with ya there Mike, some of the intricate details of this art/hobby we enjoy, can be a bit "deep" at times.
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sebastiaan56
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Post by sebastiaan56 » Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:25 am

Fabulous guitar Nick!. There is a Selmer style in my future, this thread is a keeper. THX!
make mine fifths........

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Nick
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Post by Nick » Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:33 am

sebastiaan56 wrote:Fabulous guitar Nick!. There is a Selmer style in my future, this thread is a keeper. THX!
Cool! & thanks for your words :) There are probably more experienced builders on the forum but if I can be of any use if you do do a "Super SebSelmer" in the future, then feel free to post. 8)
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Post by gratay » Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:32 am

beautiful guitar Nick. Very clean work.

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Nick
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Post by Nick » Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:51 am

Thanks Gratay,
Seeing others work posted here at ANZLF & I still have a ways to go to producing my perfect guitar but I'm learning more with every build. 8)
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Kim
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Post by Kim » Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:21 pm

Nick,

Sorry to have been so slack in responding to this great thread. I really like what your doing mate, very nice indeed. It does our forum well to have yet another builder join us who is prepared to explore a less worn path and to share their experience and fine work with us. From the fine images you have posted it would appear as if you are managing to find your feet exceptionally well along the trail.

I do have one question, and you will need to forgive my ignorance should I be off the mark altogether or if this has already been discussed. Didn't the original Django style Selmer Maccafferi have some kind of internal baffle system going on to direct air movement within the box? Sort of like you can see through the soudhole in this guitar but also extending into the lower bout.

Image

P.S. Must mention that I do not think any less of your fine guitar if you did in fact choose to omit the internal baffles, if indeed the original had them. I am just curious about them and wonder if it their intent was to give projection, or if the design was an anti feedback thang?

Cheers

Kim

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Post by matthew » Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:01 pm

Kim that's the widemouth model, and in fact Django didn't use that one, but the model that Nick made. The widemouth model was more a rhythm guitar model and had a complete internal soundbox suspended inside and baffles too, but I think even Selmer stopped using the internals after a while. I'm curious to know what effect they had on sound. love to hear a recording of with and without ...

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Post by Dennis Leahy » Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:59 am

It looks like Django's band mates did use the widemouth D-hole Selmer, and Django is seen at least posing with the same (so he must have played both types.).

Here's a fun Django video on YouTube: Django-J'attendrai

And this is a montage of stills, with "Hot Jazz" for your ears: Django Reinhardt - The Sheik of Araby
(remember when smoking cigarettes was cool?)

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Post by sebastiaan56 » Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:01 am

The widemouth instrument had a shorter string length and used nylon rather than steel strings. The later steel instrument was a repudiation of earlier nylon string / resonator instruments according to this site http://www.lutherie.net/bckgrnd.html

It also seems like there was a tradition of Italian bent top guitars as well. Info seems to be harder to find on these.
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Nick
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Post by Nick » Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:43 pm

Thanks for your words of encouragement Kim. My mentor I guess is Bob Benedetto (incase you can't tell :) ) & although he's one of the worlds best luthiers, he is so open to sharing his methods and theorys. So I guess I have adopted the same principle, I can't go along with people that pretend it's some mystical art and keep their secrets to themselves. The more we share and critique, the better it is for luthiery & everybody that plays our instruments.
Matthew, Dennis and Sebastiaan have pretty much summed it up, the wide mouth (or Grande Bouche as it was known) or even "D" hole as it is often refered to today was the original design of Mario Maccafferi in 1932, he added the internal resonator (which I believe was made of bakelite!) which by his reckoning would project all the soundwaves floating around inside the box out to the listener, I think he believed that some of the sound was being trapped inside the soundboxes of other guitars at that time & that the resonator combined with the large sound hole would allow his guitar a louder voice.
The drawback of them though was that being made of harder material than the soundboard and due to manufacturing techniques of the time were not very well attached to it. A number if not all, players had the added bonus of the resonator vibrating & buzzing when they played the guitar hard during comping. As a result they were removed by the players and tossed away, so to find an original Maccafferri with a resonator in would be as rare as rocking horse poo! There was also some belief that taking out the resonator increased the volume of the guitar, so perhaps it should have been called a baffle instead:lol: .
As Dennis pointed out, they were used mostly (and still are today) for rhythm playing, with the shorter 648mm scale they had a more mellower sound. When Django started using them, Maccafferri had left the Selmer company after only 3 years of building his design & Selmer then changed the design to the longer 670mm scale with an oval hole, it was called the Petite Bouche (little mouth) which produced the more lead orientated cutting, louder sound we now associate with Gypsy jazz. There was some belief that Mario left after an argument with management, maybe they had tried to get him to drop the resonator design after hearing player feedback but he believed so much in his design that he would change it?
One thing I would like to do (I think I mentioned it in an earlier post) is to build a 'mule' guitar that will allow me to try necks of different angles, remove both front and back plates and really experiment with different bracing styles and sizes in order to create "taylored" sounds as required. I would like to retain the outside appearance so that people immediately can identify the style of guitar but would like to alter the 'hidden' parts that go to shape the voice so much. I have yet to nut out the finer details to achieve this but believe I can build a side system that will allow me to remove the neck & either plate for tinkering without adding bulk or extra "non-resonating" parts that would thereby alter the sound. I love these small bodied guitars & would love to see how far I can take them.

Django was/is the godfather of Gypsy Jazz but this guy is one of his wiseguys :) A modern day monster and makes playing such a fast passage look so easy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-y62lax0Pc Remembering that the pick they use to play this stuff is 5mm thick so it's not just a matter of flicking the pick slightly to make it sound staccato. 8)
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Post by Mike Thomas » Sat Mar 07, 2009 4:08 pm

Nick, much of what you say about the soundbox in the Selmer Maccaferri guitars is true. The soundboxes were generally not liked by the players, and the majority were quickly removed. They were a significant complication in the manufacture, and added a lot to the cost of the instrument. By far the majority of the production in the first two or three years went to the U.K., because Maccaferri was living in London when the range of guitars was first commisioned, by Selmer (who had not made guitars before) through their London shop. And the cost in London of a Selmer Maccaferri was around twice that of the American guitars which would have been regarded as reasonable alternatives.
Of the gut string models, only The Classique, a traditional style classical guitar, did not have a soundbox. All the others (The Espagnol, that looked like a traditional classical guitar, and The Concert which was a Grande Bouche style with a classical bridge) had sound boxes. The steel string Orchestre model, also known as the Jazz model is the one so much associated with the Hot Club of France, and that had a sound box. I don't know whether the members of the Hot Club removed the soundboxes or not. When the Selmer Maccaferri relationship ended in 1933/34 there was a transitional period during which old stock and parts were used up, and the new Selmer Petite Bouche was designed, using the same body shape and dimensions as the older Grande Bouche, plus a small oval soundhole, longer scale length, and no soundbox. Incidentally, the whole reason for the size and shape of the Grande Bouche soundhole was for access to the sound box.

According to Francois Charles, the sides of the soundbox were usually made of walnut, and its back made of spruce. I haven't seen any reference to Bakelite, although Mario Maccaferri was later to become a pioneer of the plastics industry in the U.S.
Mike Thomas


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Kim
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Post by Kim » Sat Mar 07, 2009 4:46 pm

Mike Thomas wrote: According to Francois Charles, the sides of the soundbox were usually made of walnut, and its back made of spruce. I haven't seen any reference to Bakelite, although Mario Maccaferri was later to become a pioneer of the plastics industry in the U.S.
Indeed Mike, I have seen the odd Maccaferri 'all plastic' guitar come up on ebay USA and sell for little money. Legend has it that a big stash of them were found in boxes unassembled in a warehouse a while back. These guitars were so unpopular few sold leading to this big stash of NOS. When they recently became available this killed any real value they may have had as a collectible so they are now considered no more than a curio really. Still, they look OK :P.

http://www.grouseguitars.com.au/sold/mo ... aferri.htm

Cheers

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Nick
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Post by Nick » Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:29 am

Thanks for that Mike :serg I'm learning more about these guitars everyday & that is another piece of info to add to my knowledge base. I'm not sure where I got the bakelite thing from but I seem to remember reading it on the internet somewhere, obviously an erroneous source :roll: as Francios Charles book is considered to be the definitive reference for these guitars.
I read a short time ago that they were going to do another printing run of his book 8) Must keep an eye out for that one although it's bound to have a rather large price tag on it :cry:
Edit: Just looked up on Francios Charle's site and a new run of limited edition (1000 copies) soft cover copies is available @ 75 Euros each 8)
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Post by gratay » Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:17 pm

I'd just like to add this guy as a master of the style...among many styles and instruments that he plays this is just one feather in his cap


youtu.be/


youtu.be/

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Nick
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Post by Nick » Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:32 pm

Cheers Gratay, Mr Lagrene is a master indeed along with Stochelo Rosenberg. Still love Angelo Debarre for coolness factor and just has a beautiful feel & touch.

For anybody still wanting an idea of the top 'arching' here's a couple of pics of build #2 where the top can be seen easier because it hasn't got bridges, strings or tailpieces to 'impare' the view.

The pliage "line" is quite visible in this shot.
Image
Had just buffed the guitar in this picture, hence the bum fluff on the top obviously forgot to wipe the top before taking the pic!

And the side view, plus a nice view of the Blackwood side.
Image
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