Electrics and acoustics living happily together

[Dominic]

Hey, I have just read a post on the OLF called 'I've entered the dark side...' by a guy who is making a thin line Tele.

another guy answered

"Not sure why luthiery has come to mean any guitar that is not a hardbody electric...

This is a great point. Now things might get a bit controversial but hey. Most great modern music is at least a combination of electric and acoustic or more likely mostly electric. And the best young guys today play metal oriented electric and have taken guitar playing to a whole new level.
So are the 'serious' luthier forum communities such as this keeping up to date with modern guitar playing or is that not the point? Is there a line in the sand that divides the two? (In that case I am in trouble because I stand in both camps).
What do you think?
Dom

[kiwigeo]

First off Im biased and terribly opinionated. Bottom line is I dont have much time for electrics simply because they excite me about as much as an Adidas full of dog vomit.

As for heavy metal shredders taking guitar playing to a new level....I agree theyre on a new level but they arent on the same level as Leo Kottke or Ralph Towner or a whole host of other accomplished acoustic players.

[Kim]

Dom,

I have no gripe against electrics guitars at all, but lets face it, most songs played on an electric were most probably conceived on an acoustic to begin with anyhow. For composers, there is something very special about sitting on your own unplugged and pulling it altogether 'before' you amp it up and launch ur latest 'thang' upon the general public. That special 'thang' of course is Mum and Dad, and the noise abatement laws.

The fact is that most of us start on an acoustic, have it sit in the corner whilst we investigate electrics for a few year, only to find ourselves eventually picking up the acoustic from that corner like the long lost friend it is and actually begin to explore the intense beautiful of the instrument for the first time in our lives. So I guess what I am saying is that it is my own opinion that anything other than an acoustic is really just getting to where ur going.

Cheers

Kim

[gratay]

I'd have to say I'm in both camps as well

I've been lucky enough to have made a living out of playing and working in guitar manufacture.

On the playing side I always do gigs that require electric...and prefer to as well. I love the sound of electric..There's something about the combination of guitar/pedals/amp and playing in a band situation I really like except lugging all that heavy gear around. Around the house though all I really play is acoustic.

On the other hand on the building side of things I got to work on both acoustics and electrics and I'd have to say that building acoustics I found way more challenging and interesting. Its like the search for the holy grail or something.

As far as listening to music I am constantly searching for new music from all styles, all cultures, .. I try and listen to as many new players as I can find.

So for me
Playing- Electric
Building - acoustics
listening- both

[Hesh1956]

Dom buddy I don't think that there is any division here and I certainly see electrics as a very important part of Lutherie as well.

The term "dark side" when referring to making electrics was coined by JJ Donohue when he was taking a break from acoustics to build a couple of electrics for his sons. Can you imagine having a dad that was actually interested enough in what you are interested in to build you a killer shredder or Les Paul! Wow!

JJ used the term simply because the majority of content on the OLF was acoustic related. He was and is interested in having more electric content and perhaps a special section of the forum as well.

It's all good and most of my life I was far more attracted to electrics too.

[Dave White]

Richard Thompson - you don't need to say any more than that. well you could say Eric Clapton as well but personaly I think he is way over rated.

[Sam Price]

I love pushing air the old fashioned way, and investigating the science and magic behind it. Won't ever reject the possibility of building an electric, but it's acoustics all the way for me for now.

Would say though that both elements of instrument building are just as valid. I have seen some relatively unknown luthiers building stunning looking instruments...just different priorities with regards to ergonomics and aesthetics being more important. (IMO with electrics, tone is in the fingers and in the p/ups. )

Acoustic guitar building has evolved and has an air of prestige about it because of the centuries of tradition. Just like people saying Classical music is far better than modern.

[jeffhigh]

I first attempted building an acoustic guitar when I was around 20.
Didn't get much further than starting a mould and buying some unsuitable wood.
Ten years ago I started building African style drums for my band, then Xylophones, Native American style flutes, kora etc.
Then before my 50th I decided I would like a birth year tele (1955) and didnt want to give money to the local distribuors etc so I would build one.
(do any of you remember being a kid in Sydney and not allowed to touch the real fenders in Harry Landis's shop).

So building electrics was actually a gateway drug towards acoustics

[sebastiaan56]

Most great modern music is at least a combination of electric and acoustic or more likely mostly electric. And the best young guys today play metal oriented electric and have taken guitar playing to a whole new level.

Interesting question in that the weight of history is behind acoustic. IMHO most of the electric/electronic stuff around sucks dogs balls. Shit like Death Metal and Rap are the product of marketing departments desperate to build their ageing catalogues and retain some semblance of a future income stream for their shareholders. The video hits programs with the tight butts and shaky shaky exist only to promote these products and the content is cheap for the networks so that they can fill TV programming dead spots.

Im sure there is real talent out there but I dont see it in the commercial world. It doesnt make money. Music as a social phenomena has been mostly uprooted by copyright law which exists to preserve the commercial interests of the multinationals and stifle creativity. Electronic media is much more amenable to this control. The great folk traditions could or would not have grown up in such and environment. Producers dumb down artists to ensure sales of future albums. Why are most bands earlier albums better than their later ones?

I centuries gone past everyone was a dancer of sorts, a musician of sorts, a singer of sorts, now its a profession owned by multinational conglomerates of accountants and their skinny shaky shaky girl/boy bands. We have lost the plot.

Sorry what was the question, oh yeh... I think the words luthier and lute are related, and given that most of the sound of an electric guitar is the amp, pups and the effects pedals Im not sure the same word should apply. In the same way an electronic beat box is not a drum kit and a synth is not an organ. These instruments are derived from their acoustic precedents but are not the same and shouldnt share the same name.

Most importantly, I prefer acoustic music. Im with the Geo,

[jeffhigh]

I'm sure with you sebastian on modern commercial music and I think it is a gret shame that playing music has been separated from the people to where it is only "real" if it is on a CD or on TV

[Dave White]

Interesting question in that the weight of history is behind acoustic. IMHO most of the electric/electronic stuff around sucks dogs balls.

Yes but then you have David Gilmour soloing on "Comfortably Numb" - I'd love to know that dog! And Richard Thompson on "Shoot out the Lights" or "Walking on a Wire". It's a medium and the greats can make it happen both playing electric and acoustic, and they have their acoustic and electric guitar makers that give them the instruments.

[Stu]

There certainly seems to be a clearcut line in the sand on this forum.
A little disappointing but overall, not a problem.

I build electrics in varying styles and listen to music made with acoustic and electric instruments. No need for a divide in my book, they're from the same genus, just a different species.
Given the amount of newer style 'Hybrid' style guitars being built by the big acoustic guitar guys , someone's gotta be buying them. It's blurring the lines in the sand and I think that is a good thing.



cheers, Stu

[Bob Connor]

I build and play both.

[Dominic]

Interesting responses. Some have missed the point I was making. It is not what type of music we like ourselves but the market we are serving. Though I admit I was just stirring the older guys a bit with my metal comments.

Kim has a good point, many songs get composed on an acoustic.

But as makers, don't we want to be part of the whole process, not only the composing stage, but also recording and gigging and that would require us to have a broader skill set than just acoustics and to get into amplification. Because, lets face it, there are not many musicians who can make a buck these days playing with no amplification. The crowds are just too small or the tickets too expensive.

Like Oz said, the industry is blurring the lines but on these forums I think the line is still very clear. There are other place to talk about electrics but we may be missing something by keeping them separate.

And Dave, if there ever was a better solo than Comfortably Numb I haven’t heard it. Wouldn’t you want to be able to say you made the instrument that something that good got played on?

Lastly, top 40 stuff has always been shite, even when you were all kids and thought it was great. But there is a ton of great alt music around these days and bands have access to the internet which means they can get away from the big record companies and do their own thing. And they want instruments.
Dom

[sebastiaan56]

Yes but then you have David Gilmour soloing on "Comfortably Numb" - I'd love to know that dog! And Richard Thompson on "Shoot out the Lights" or "Walking on a Wire". It's a medium and the greats can make it happen both playing electric and acoustic, and they have their acoustic and electric guitar makers that give them the instruments.

Al DiMeola ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPyjAcsvhTY ) is more my style personally but Im with you there Dave. Then there is Hendrix, Zappa, etc. I was a bit off topic for a lot of that rave, apologies.

Words change in meaning all the time and the meaning of words is a collective discussion. The French battle this all the time trying to keep their language pure. If lutherie includes electrics and acoustics what about harps?

[kiwigeo]

And Dave, if there ever was a better solo than Comfortably Numb I haven’t heard it.

Everyone has their favourites.....the guitar solo on "Aja" by Steey Dan is a masterpiece IMHO. Forget who played it.

Anyway this thread is going to wander as it really boils down to what turns you on and what turns you off.

I cant stand metal but hey 35 years ago I thought Uriah Heap and Black Sabbath were the only bands one should listen to.

[Bob Connor]

Here ya go. Something for everyone.

Hayseed Dixie playing Zeppelin's Black Dog

[youtube]http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=yLDmjoWIHj0[/youtube]

[sebastiaan56]

Good one Bob,

my favourite

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeFDFQso ... re=related

[Taffy Evans]

HI Guy's
Well I also play and build acoustics and electric guitars, I gig with electrics only now days but still play acoustics. I've got more than my fair share of both.
I think I've built a solid version of every instrument I've built as an acoustic, if theres some sort of challenge and a customer at the end who's going to enjoy it, I'll take the job ,if I feel I am going to enjoy it. I've knocked back many solid body jobs with that in mind, I've never knocked back an acoustic order. As a matter of interest I've built solid body versions of: Nylon guitar, violin, resonator guitar, lap steel, mandolin [flying V]and "f"style, and stand up Bass. Many an electric guitarist plays a solid guitar "dry" unplugged, to test it's acoustic properties, sustain ect. I must say I prefer acoustic instrument building the most. Would you believe it last week I was asked to build a solid body Irish Bouzouki, I've built quite a few acoustic versions, so Ill take that order.

[ozziebluesman]

Having played electric guitar for many years I thought I may as well have an opinion.

Seems to me we have two different animals here!

Electric and acoustic guitars are both created for different musical applications. One is not better than the other just different. Playing electric you need a great marrige with a good amp the rest then is in your finger tips. I've seen it time and time again where two players can make the same electric guitar and amp set at the same settings sound completely different. Electric in a band environment is the only real way to get a good balance between instruments.

A good acoustic dosen't need an amp although in a band environment it helps. Acoustic's are more of a solo instrument or as a vocal accompliment. It can be very expressive in those situations. Acoustic's are more sensitive to what they are built from, bracing styles, top woods and body sizes more so than an electric. IMO. Again different acoustic's are built for differents musical tastes.

Also I think we need to keep an open mind toward music and appreciate a great sounding acoustic guitar in a solo environment or a good strat and a small valve amp running nice and hot!

As far as building goes my experience is limited. I have built a few electric guitars, a concert uke and two weissenborn style guitars. The acoustic instrument is such a better challange than an electric to build. Many more variables to take into account and experiment with.

Lifes good and I don't know what I would do without my strat and my 000 acoustic.

Cheers

Alan

[Stu]

I'll be up front and state that this thread's direction is starting to crawl under my skin, and is spreading that so called divide between acoustics and electrics even further apart, however it does spurn me on to post more electric build threads here because that is what my current
builds are. Chambered or hollowbodied but nevertheless 'electric'.

I find this forum to be an amazing wealth of information,
but also feel an underlying resistance to anything other than acoustic trad. builds here and having said that, It spurns me on to show more of what I enjoy creating and share my learning experiences as well, be that electric or acoustic builds in the future doesn't bother me, it's about the sharing of common interests that is the crux of this forum.

Variety is the true spice of life !!!

cheers, Stu

[Kim]

ONUSTU

I've always respected both instruments and have made my personal preference quite clear, but I have always respected someone who is true to themselves more than any instrument.

Cheers

Kim

[Dominic]

I feel I could have used a better title and maybe Stu's skin would feel less crawly but there are obviously some strong feelings here about this.

The point was not which is better, this is where I blew the title , but whether sticking to one or the other meant we were not completing a skill set and more importantly for us, that by not really talking about the two together was the art/craft/science of lutherie poorer for it?

Here’s a great example, Graham McDonald discussed in his GAL article a few years ago how he uses electric style necks on his acoustic instruments and shows his take on an old Fender acoustic neck setup borrowed from their electrics. Maybe there are innovations and lessons to be learned from both.

I'm with Stu, I'll post my electrics and I'll just have to come and throw stones on the roof of anybody who disdains.

Cheers
Dom

[Craig]

I'll be up front and state that this thread's direction is starting to crawl under my skin, and is spreading that so called divide between acoustics and electrics even further apart, however it does spurn me on to post more electric build threads here because that is what my current
builds are. Chambered or hollowbodied but nevertheless 'electric'.

I find this forum to be an amazing wealth of information,
but also feel an underlying resistance to anything other than acoustic trad. builds here and having said that, It spurns me on to show more of what I enjoy creating and share my learning experiences as well, be that electric or acoustic builds in the future doesn't bother me, it's about the sharing of common interests that is the crux of this forum.

Variety is the true spice of life !!!

cheers, Stu

Well put Stu !

I would hate there to be even a hint of divide . Hell , they're all guitars , regardless if their electrified or not . Gives the whole guitar making thing a much broader horizon.
Please , don't any of you electric guys ever think you're on 'the dark side' on this forum ! That's quite ridiculous !

Just thinking back to a couple of weeks ago , when Stu posted pictures of his fabulous guitar



Who WOULDN'T call that magnificent !

Or , who can forget this trussrod cover , Applicable to both acoustic and electric





We all learn and get ideas off each other whether electric or acoustic , it's just that us acoustic guys are a bit more mature and smarter ( that's a joke ! )

As well as Pink Floyd , Hendrix etc ,,, what about Mark Knopfler !

Lets not forget that this is a stringed instrument makers forum , which includes many other instruments . Mandos , ukes , zouks , violins, cellos etc. etc. I always enjoy Matthew's double bass threads too !


Cheers !



.

[Sam Price]

Stu,

That's a goregeous guitar...the grain looks like you've captured some element in motion, and the design appointments are stunning!
I'm going to look for that thread Craig mentioned....