Rosewood and CITES

[kiwigeo]

i just received this email: http://us9.campaign-archive2.com/?u=c67 ... 04cb68f363
-Ross

Doesn't look like they've jacked up their prices a huge amount. I've bought a fair bit of IRW off LMI over the years and the price and quality has always been good.

[Steve.Toscano]

After all that deviation from the topic, are there any more suggestions for a local rosewood replacement? So far only Queensland Walnut has been mentioned, but that is problematic. Something hard, heavy and low internal damping, and reasonably easy to bend should fit the bill. Dark colour would be nice also. There must be something out there. Size of the tree might be a problem though. Or maybe someone should plant a rosewood plantation in Queensland.

I have a heap of tassie myrtle cut from the 1 slab. It feels as hard, and is nearly as heavy (724kg/m3) as my irw sets. Unsure about damping, certainly doesnt fit the looks.

As to a local supplier, i recently bought a few irw sets from Darrel Wheeler. Great wood, at a good price, and a super nice guy.

[DarwinStrings]

You can buy this stuff for bindings, grab a few and you would have binding covered for a while at least Ebay Link

[peter.coombe]

Tassie Myrtle is not really a substitute for Rosewood. It is not as hard and has much higher internal damping. Very nice tonewood, and bends easily, but it does sound different from Indian Rosewood.

Peter

[routout]

I just recently purchased some 5 fret boards on ebay payed the Chinese man on the Internet they were sent from Sydney in 4 days and the Company has branches in Pakistan as well ,on the subject of quality nice dark color pretty straight grained don't look force fed $13 each free post.

[curly]

As to replacements in native timbers there are no direct swap outs that don't have their own issues .
I'm in the Otways harvesting currently with some awesome Blackwood coming out but that's obviously not a match for Rosewood in density , tone or colour .
I am also harvesting Satin Box - Phebalium squameum which is reputed to be similar in tone and slightly higher in density than Rosewood though it's absolutely nothing like it for colour . It's bright golden blonde . Also the trees are small and faulty , making full width quarter sawn backs difficult to get . I'm doing a special run for Cole Clark currently but they are 3 piece backs with only the centre wedge in Satin Box .
Really it's a tricky question . Most of the potential swap outs for backs and sides have issues .
Brush Box and Turpentine are available but both have high change modulus / unit shrinkage data . They're unstable .
As are some , though not all of the high density Eucalypts . Really anything above 0.25 % ( per 1% change of moisture content between 8 and 22% ) is unacceptable . From memory the true Mahoganies which are the benchmark for stability in service , are around the 0.15 mark . Rosewood from memory was 0.23 . A couple of Eucaulpts I'm working on as possible swap outs - E. obliqua and E.marcorhyncha have unit shrinkage values in the low 20's and density in the 700 to 800 kg/cu target range for Indian Rosewood swap out . I'm playing around with reacting the timbers high tannin content with iron in a pressure vessel to try to get the black colour to completely penetrate the blank . Simply soaking boards in the liquor is not getting sufficient penetration . I've got to build a larger pressure vessel in toughened glass but initial pressure tests are good with full penetration possible in back and sides dimensions at least . An added benefit in the Eucalypts is the timber is rendered more stable as the process acts as a version of reconditioning , common in commercially dried Eucalypts though usually done with steam . The cell walls are swollen back to their original shape , collapse is recovered , and when re dried the boards retain their original shape . I can't find post reconditioning unit shrinkage data but csiro data on R and T movement tend to show about a 20% improvement . Another way of getting the full black colour , and getting virtually no dimensional movement is to pressure treat with Cactus Juice thermocure resin and dye . I've bought the bits which are expensive ( I don't know yet if prohibitively so ) but haven't run trials yet . The knife forums are full of dyed and stabilised timber so its well possible .
Finally on that topic , is torrefied fingerboards and possibly backs and sides in Eucalyptus timbers . This is probably the future as the technology promises to be able to both darken and stabilise ( by oxidising the hemicelluloses ) . Readily available , quick grown species could be rendered suitable . At this stage I'm reticent to take the process on . The capital expense is best suited to the big guys . We will see . Certainly I can acces the right trees .....
Most of the desert acacias are acceptable but with higher density and corresponding difficulty to work . Brigalow - Acacia harpophylla is probably the closest swap out . It's more like a ton per cube instead of the 12 to 1350 kg a cube of many others .
Many make great fingerboards but the higher density as discussed . Back and sides are possible in many though really hard won and thus expensive . I've tried Gidgee , Mulga , Doolalia , Lance wood , Spearwood , Bowyakka , Bowgada , Minneritchi , Yarran , Myall .....
Pete
Curly Timbers

[peter.coombe]

Have just confirmed with LMI. They will only be doing "limited" international shipments of Indian Rosewood. By "limited" what they really mean is wholesale only. The costs and long delays for getting permits make retail shipments unviable. However, they will continue to import Indian Rosewood from India, with the appropriate permits and CITES paperwork. This will continue to be available to USA retail customers as usual, although there is likely to be an increase in price. So, unless a local Aussie supplier does the same as LMI we are stuffed as far as Indian Rosewood is concerned. With no viable local alternative yet, I guess we should be grateful the USA manufacturers are unlikely to ship their rosewood guitars to Australia. So, the USA market will still have access to plenty of Indian Rosewood, but we probably won't.

[slowlearner]

I know it's a long term investment, but maybe it's time for us to plant some indian rosewood here? The climate would work well enough right?

[Trevor Gore]

Thanks for the detail, Pete (McC) and Peter C.

[peter.coombe]

Some good news. From Darrell Wheeler -

" I anticipate still being able to offer it. I have dealt with CITES certification before and am familiar with the regulations. I'm trying now to make sure that my regular supplier will be able to provide the proper documentation. It's looking like there will be no interruption in my supply and only a modest increase in price."

So at least one local supplier will probably be able to still offer Indian Rosewood sets. That solves the back and sides problem. Might have to make up my own bindings though.

Peter

[dshaker]

I know it's a long term investment, but maybe it's time for us to plant some indian rosewood here? The climate would work well enough right?

If you have a frost-free location, my guess is that you could grow it. From Wikipedia:

It is primarily found growing along river banks below 900 metres (3,000 ft) elevation, but can range naturally up to 1,300 m (4,300 ft). The temperature in its native range averages 10–40 °C (50–104 °F), but varies from just below freezing to nearly 50 °C (122 °F). It can withstand average annual rainfall up to 2,000 millimetres (79 in) and droughts of 3–4 months. Soils range from pure sand and gravel to rich alluvium of river banks; shisham can grow in slightly saline soils. Seedlings are intolerant of shade.

Pretty hardy, no?

Indian rosewood seeds are available on EBay. When I ordered some, they came from Pakistan (I think). However, as I recall, the seeds don't remain viable for more than a few months, so don't order them until you at least have an idea where you will plant them.

[kiwigeo]

Bugger superannuation.....I'm cashing in my super and buying a shitload of Indian Rosewood

[slowlearner]

I've thought the same about ebony for some time too. Imagine what a fortune your kids and grandkids could earn off a few acres of that?

[demonx]

Indian rosewood seeds are available on EBay. When I ordered some, they came from Pakistan (I think). However, as I recall, the seeds don't remain viable for more than a few months, so don't order them until you at least have an idea where you will plant them.

A couple years ago I bought Ebony, Rosewood, mahogany and a heap of other not so common over here seeds from eBay, out of about a thousand seeds, not one germinated!

They came from India from memory.

Now, I wouldn't go as far as calling myself a green thumb, but I did work in a nursery at one stage many years ago, so I wouldn't say I'm completely useless in the area either. When I have worked from my own seeds for other species I've had fairly successful germination rates, so my bet is it was the seeds.

On a side note, I anyone wants Blackwood saplings, I have a gazillion of them. They regularly get trimmed with my tractor/slasher!

[slowlearner]

On a side note, I anyone wants Blackwood saplings, I have a gazillion of them. They regularly get trimmed with my tractor/slasher!

Maybe that'll be our timber of choice for everything now!

[DarwinStrings]

I don't want to knock plantations seems like the smart thing to do really. Recently I read that when the Tiwi Islands newest plantation (Acacia mangium) was started the stock that was already on the plantation site was cleared and sold as "plantation wood" it would have been mainly some "blood wood", maybe a bit of wooly butt or local stringy bark all gum's of some sort, it was also sold at a "loss". The idea is mainly for pulp but there might end up being some saw logs in it. The plantation is being looked at as a serious weed potential. The original owners went belly up. There could be some problem with something called "myrtle rust". To end on a positive though I think it might be owned by the Tiwi people now and it looks like they might get their first pulp out in three years time.

[curly]

I'm all for growing trees . Like Allen I've bought seed (and collected ) from all over the place , with various success . Lots have worked though zero success on Dalbergias or Diospyros . My latest success is in growing Alerce - Fitzroya from cuttings . Just think , In 3000 years someone might make some soundboards !
That's sort of to the point with plantations . They are really good ( and necessary ) at growing bland , utilitarian wood fast . Timber with colour and character for the best part comes from older trees that have copped a bit of life .
Don't get me wrong . I reckon we should ( and I do ) , plant rare and special trees all over the place . It beautifies our environment and it ensures that special timber will be available for future generations . What it won't do is fix our f ups with over exploitation short term .
Pete
Curly Timbers

[blackalex1952]

It would be nice to see a cultural change in Australia (and globally) where exotic woods are much more valued. As an example, I live in an are where the Victorian hydroelectric power is generated. When the town and the power stations were established, there were many exotic trees planted- Ash, Cedars, Maples, elms, walnuts, plane trees, ornamental fruit trees such as cherry etc...these trees also exist as street trees and in parks and both public and private gardens. Generally, when contractors, council and other government employees are tasked with the removal of these trees when deemed necessary, the timbers are cut into small logs for easy transport to tips, for firewood for locals or burned. If there was a register where useful trees were listed and protected to the extent that the useful timber from each tree was milled or offered to small scale millers. I have been using a plane tree I cut 40 years ago for bindings, cherry just as old for some necks and and have some boxwood I also cut that I have used for tools. There is a guy near me who has been stockpiling walnut wood for years. He is a gunstock supplier and in the 1980's he was paying up to $2000 for a good tree and only taking the heartwood in the base of the tree. I also suspect that there is a strong likelyhood that there is illegally harvested NG Rosewood coming out of West Papua and hitting the market...your guess where it is going...
I will also mention that the issues with plantation monocultures are numerous.
-Ross

[Steve.Toscano]

Can anyone confirm what will happen regarding finished instruments crossing borders containing IRW?

There is heaps of conflicting information. Some saying finished products are exempt from needing paperwork, others saying paperwork will be required.
Which is of concern for those like myself who have a stash or IRW bought over the years with very little paperwork for it.

There's threads over on delcamp were people are saying they wont be able to move their guitars across borders within the EU.

I find it hard to believe that finished instruments are going to need paperwork - think of all those electrics going across borders everyday with IRW fretboards.

[peter.coombe]

The annotations have not been published yet, but finished products WILL be included, and it is the first time Appendix II has included finished products. Any commercial transaction across international borders will require CITES documentation, but if it is your own personal instrument it will be exempt, with the exceptions of Russia, Japan and China. Commercial transaction means sales or repairs that involve payment. No documentation to prove you bought it before 1/1/2017 (common problem)? Take some pictures now and jot down the approximate date you bought it and from whom you bought it. However, if it never crosses an international border then there is no problem and no need to panic.

[Steve.Toscano]

Thanks Peter,.
Wow, thats going to be a huge pain to anyone selling instruments to overseas customers. I cant see a photo being enough evidence (photography date stamps are easy to fudge).

[lamanoditrento]

Maybe be in the photo with a the days newspaper